The Reference 6J5 Thread (L63, 6C5, 12J5, 6P5, etc.)
Mar 22, 2021 at 9:31 PM Post #1,321 of 4,115
Really nice info...thanks for the detailed impressions. I don't have any Raytheon 6J5's at all, but have a number of Raytheon 6SN7's of various vintages and plate construction. One plate style I really like, and the other I don't like at all...I mean really at all. I'll keep mum on which is which at this point. :smile: And of course these are 6SN7's so they're different animals to begin with, and I expect they are all of later manufacture ('50's and later) than what you have so any attempted comparison might be a fools errand.
Yeah once you get into the 50's the Raytheon sound changes completely. It really depends on which tube you have. Some of them were made in Japan too. My experience with the GTB versions of their 6SN7 were less than positive, but it was a long time ago and there's more than one variant.

These engraved base 6J5Gs sound nothing like any 6SN7 from the 50's or 60's, and don't especially sound like any 6SN7 I have heard at all really. They remind me more of the sound of my Ken-Rad UX245 globes in my G45 amp actually which is high praise. I have had this thought in the back of my head to have that amp modified in the future to take 6J5 drivers instead of C3g and the case for that change is building.
 
Mar 24, 2021 at 4:40 PM Post #1,323 of 4,115
Here is Raytheon Part 2. The description of the prior tubes matches this pair exactly with two differences: these are branded GM (as in General Motors) instead of Zenith, and they have round style plates instead of ladder box plates.

IMG_20210323_082238265.jpg


So I'm going to get right to the meat of this impression post and come out with it: yes they sound different, mostly in one key way. The biggest question on my mind was whether or not round plate tubes have a different presentation vs. a square plate style such as the ladder plate or t-plate. At least as far as these two tube cousins go my ears say yes. There is a distinct difference in how the soundstage is presented and rendered to the listener. I found the ladder plate tube to have a headstage that was distinctly foward, placed in front of your head, with a stage shape that is more wide than deep. This round plate, on the other head, feels like it centers the sound ON your head rather than in front of it, producing less of a stage effect and more of an immersion effect. There is a bit less soundstage width, but a great deal more front/back depth. I think you can see where I'm going with this: yes, IMO, the shape of the plate seems to correspond to the shape of the soundstage. I have given a great deal of thought about whether or not this is real or if I'm just experiencing a psychosomatic perception and the difference is just expectation fulfillment. But I think what I'm hearing here is real, again at least for these two specific tubes. I consistently am given the impression by the round plates that musical information is being presented or projected BEHIND me, and I just didn't get that same impression while listening to the ladder plates.

I really can't say whether one would be better than the other. It's really down to the listener's preference. For example if you consider a stage presentation such as what you would hear in a live concert with the music coming at you from the front to be more "correct" you might prefer the ladder plate presentation. If, on the other hand, you want the music all around you sort of like the music version of being in a planetarium then you would probably really like the round plate.

Beyond this the presentation within the soundstage is also somewhat different. I found that, while stage width is not wider, the sense of space between notes is more prominent with these round plates. It also feels easier to listen "into" the notes and gives a greater sense of depth to the sound.

The rest of the differences are much more subtle. Tonally they are very close but not identical. I find the top and bottom end here just a tiny bit rolled off compared to the ladder plate, and it's a bit more mellow throughout the top end. These roundplates tame the Beyer treble completely which means they're a pretty mellow tube overall. I also find them a tad bit more polite dynamically, but the really great spatialization from the soundstage presentation makes up for this in it's own way. I would characterize it overall as similar but a touch more "vintage" than the ladder plate was. In a blind test I don't think I could tell the two apart just from judging tone. Overall this tube is very easy to listen to, but with faster higher energy music it can come dangerously close to being boring at times because of how laid back and even handed it is. The difference in dynamic energy between this tube and the Sylvania engraved base for example is pretty big, those are two very different flavors.

I would rate resolution at least as good as the ladder plate and because of the 3D soundstage probably better. Timbre is great here because of the texture information being conveyed, but even when it's just a single note such as a single bow stroke of a violin I'm struck by the "roundness" of the note and how much depth it seems to convey.

Overall there's a strong familiar resemblence between the two Rays but the soundstage and imaging difference is key and is what lends these two tubes different characters. I like both and am happy to have both in my collection. If you pressed me about only keeping one I might whisper "ladder plate" just because I was really enjoying the overall presentation of them towards the end of my listen the other day. It felt like they could do no wrong as far as my preferences for tone and balance were concerned. I think the roundplates are almost too polite and even handed at times, but every once in a while the soundstaging and how the notes were presented would really strike me as something special and those moments were engrossing so they absolutely have their own appeal. Better to say I'm glad to have both tubes. :)
 
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Mar 24, 2021 at 5:19 PM Post #1,327 of 4,115
Side note: this one got pretty long. I'll try to be more brief for my remaining impression posts, but given the experiment at play I wanted to dig a little deeper this time.

The long impressions are cool. It's hard to really explain auditory experiences and tube characteristics - you frame the characteristics in a very relatable way, it is much appreciated.

I think the roundplates are almost too polite and even handed at times, but every once in a while the sound staging and how the notes were presented would really strike me as something special and those moments were engrossing so they absolutely have their own appeal.

Completely agree with this sentiment. It's weird, but up until the 6J5 series, I have been a big fan of round plates. However, my preferences have done a 180 preferring ladder plates each and every single time to date in this universe of tubes -- they just really sound more alive to me. But you're right -- better to have a bit of each in one's collection -- best of both worlds.
 
Mar 25, 2021 at 1:26 PM Post #1,328 of 4,115
The long impressions are cool. It's hard to really explain auditory experiences and tube characteristics - you frame the characteristics in a very relatable way, it is much appreciated.
I really appreciate this comment. I know what I'm trying to describe in *my* head but I often wonder if it's being interpreted that same way when other people read it. Over the years I've realized that the visual metaphors and such I like to use to describe things aren't always conveying to others what I think they are. It's good to know I'm making sense to somebody at least. :p
 
Mar 25, 2021 at 1:55 PM Post #1,329 of 4,115
Here is Raytheon Part 2. The description of the prior tubes matches this pair exactly with two differences: these are branded GM (as in General Motors) instead of Zenith, and they have round style plates instead of ladder box plates.

IMG_20210323_082238265.jpg

So I'm going to get right to the meat of this impression post and come out with it: yes they sound different, mostly in one key way. The biggest question on my mind was whether or not round plate tubes have a different presentation vs. a square plate style such as the ladder plate or t-plate. At least as far as these two tube cousins go my ears say yes. There is a distinct difference in how the soundstage is presented and rendered to the listener. I found the ladder plate tube to have a headstage that was distinctly foward, placed in front of your head, with a stage shape that is more wide than deep. This round plate, on the other head, feels like it centers the sound ON your head rather than in front of it, producing less of a stage effect and more of an immersion effect. There is a bit less soundstage width, but a great deal more front/back depth. I think you can see where I'm going with this: yes, IMO, the shape of the plate seems to correspond to the shape of the soundstage. I have given a great deal of thought about whether or not this is real or if I'm just experience a psychosomatic perception and the difference is just expectation fulfillment. But I think what I'm hearing here is real, again at least for these two specific tubes. I consistently am given the impression by the round plates that musical information is being presented or projected BEHIND me, and I just didn't get that same impression while listening to the ladder plates.

I really can't say whether one would be better than the other. It's really down to the listener's preference. For example if you consider a stage presentation such as what you would hear in a live concert with the music coming at you from the front to be more "correct" you might prefer the ladder plate presentation. If, on the other hand, you want the music all around you sort of like the music version of being in a planetarium then you would probably really like the round plate.

Beyond this the presentation within the soundstage is also somewhat different. I found that, while stage width is not wider, the sense of space between notes is more prominent with these round plates. It also feels easier to listen "into" the notes and gives a greater sense of depth to the sound.

The rest of the differences are much more subtle. Tonally they are very close but not identical. I find the top and bottom end here just a tiny bit rolled off compared to the ladder plate, and it's a bit more mellow throughout the top end. These roundplates tame the Beyer treble completely which means they're a pretty mellow tube overall. I also find them a tad bit more polite dynamically, but the really great spatialization from the soundstage presentation makes up for this in it's own way. I would characterize it overall as similar but a touch more "vintage" than the ladder plate was. In a blind test I don't think I could tell the two apart just from judging tone. Overall this tube is very easy to listen to, but with faster higher energy music it can come dangerously close to being boring at times because of how laid back and even handed it is. The difference in dynamic energy between this tube and the Sylvania engraved base for example is pretty big, those are two very different flavors.

I would rate resolution at least as good as the ladder plate and because of the 3D soundstage probably better. Timbre is great here because of the texture information being conveyed, but even when it's just a single note such as a single bow stroke of a violin I'm struck by the "roundness" of the note and how much depth it seems to convey.

Overall there's a strong familiar resemblence between the two Rays but the soundstage and imaging difference is key and is what lends these two tubes different characters. I like both and am happy to have both in my collection. If you pressed me about only keeping one I might whisper "ladder plate" just because I was really enjoying the overall presentation of them towards the end of my listen the other day. It felt like they could do no wrong as far as my preferences for tone and balance were concerned. I think the roundplates are almost too polite and even handed at times, but every once in a while the soundstaging and how the notes were presented would really strike me as something special and those moments were engrossing so they absolutely have their own appeal. Better to say I'm glad to have both tubes. :)
Those are nice looking tubes.
 
Mar 25, 2021 at 5:25 PM Post #1,330 of 4,115
Here's today's tube:

IMG_20210325_081306412.jpg


Motorola 6J5GT metal base straight glass with ladder plates. These are actually Tung-Sols, identified by a combination of construction characteristics and the presence of the Tung-Sol "322" manufacturer code on the tubes. I had been searching for the right pair of Tung-Sol 6J5G/VT94 tubes for almost 6 months when I stumbled across these and bought them as a consolation prize figuring that at least I would have something Tung-Sol made for the new amp (I'm quite a fan of this brand so there had to be something TS in the collection). These are no consolation prize when it comes to sound though.

To sum up, these tubes are outstanding. They do everything well and have no bad habits whatsoever. Tonality is spot on and resolution is excellent as well. These kind of remind somewhat of the Tung-Sol mouse ear 6SN7GT only a better version of it. The top end is more refined and the entire presentation is more nuanced and articulate with better note separation. They also have good drive and energy but are never in your face about it. I'm impressed. For somebody needing a 6J5 but isn't into tube rolling I would have no hesitation telling them to track down a pair of these and call it a day. This tube is an excellent all rounder that is well balanced from top to bottom.

I will be testing this tube's older brother, the VT-94 coke bottle version, next. I have a hunch that what I'm going to hear will be very close to this with perhaps only minor differences. If that proves true then it will make these metal base versions that much better a value for bargain hunters.

Sadly one of them is having noise issues. I've had tubes that hum like this settle down with use and I hope that's the case here. It would be a shame to have to consider them backup tier because of this.
 
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Mar 25, 2021 at 6:56 PM Post #1,331 of 4,115
I will be testing this tube's older brother, the VT-94 coke bottle version, next. I have a hunch that what I'm going to hear will be very close to this with perhaps only minor differences. If that proves true then it will make these metal base versions that much better a value for bargain hunters.
The metal base 6J5 in general are great value.
 
Mar 25, 2021 at 11:02 PM Post #1,332 of 4,115
Here's today's tube:



Motorola 6J5GT metal base straight glass with ladder plates. These are actually Tung-Sols, identified by a combination of construction characteristics and the presence of the Tung-Sol "322" manufacturer code on the tubes. I had been searching for the right pair of Tung-Sol 6J5G/VT94 tubes for almost 6 months when I stumbled across these and bought them as a consolation prize figuring that at least I would have something Tung-Sol made for the new amp (I'm quite a fan of this brand so there had to be something TS in the collection). These are no consolation prize when it comes to sound though.

To sum up, these tubes are outstanding. They do everything well and have no bad habits whatsoever. Tonality is spot on and resolution is excellent as well. These kind of remind somewhat of the Tung-Sol mouse ear 6SN7GT only a better version of it. The top end is more refined and the entire presentation is more nuanced and articulate with better note separation. They also have good drive and energy but are never in your face about it. I'm impressed. For somebody needing a 6J5 but isn't into tube rolling I would have no hesitation telling them to track down a pair of these and call it a day. This tube is an excellent all rounder that is well balanced from top to bottom.

I will be testing this tube's older brother, the VT-94 coke bottle version, next. I have a hunch that what I'm going to hear will be very close to this with perhaps only minor differences. If that proves true then it will make these metal base versions that much better a value for bargain hunters.

Sadly one of them is having noise issues. I've had tubes that hum like this settle down with use and I hope that's the case here. It would be a shame to have to consider them backup tier because of this.
I have the round plate version of both the GT's and the ST's. Like them both a lot. I just need to get some flat plates to do some comparisons.

TungSol 6J5s.jpg
VT94A 6J5G Tungsols.jpg
 
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Mar 26, 2021 at 11:19 AM Post #1,333 of 4,115
I've never seen a round plate version of the VT-94A. Would love to have a pair. I'm testing my VT-94A's today, but will probably hold off until next week before writing about them because I think they need some time in the oven. The right channel was *very* weak when I powered the amp on this morning, maybe 1/3 the volume of the left. They're leveling out now but between this and the way they sound these were probably NOS and need time to settle in.
 
Mar 26, 2021 at 1:42 PM Post #1,334 of 4,115
I've never seen a round plate version of the VT-94A. Would love to have a pair. I'm testing my VT-94A's today, but will probably hold off until next week before writing about them because I think they need some time in the oven. The right channel was *very* weak when I powered the amp on this morning, maybe 1/3 the volume of the left. They're leveling out now but between this and the way they sound these were probably NOS and need time to settle in.

Well, I must apologize. And you are right. The ST-bottle Tung Sols I have are in fact flat ladder plates and not round (so much for the bad memory on my part). These are the same "A" suffix, and sound great. I think the round plate, metal base 6J5GT's are a little more open and extended in the treble, but 1) I don't have a lot of time on these ST's yet, and 2) these have a definite "organic" sound to them that works nicely across many musical genres.

VT94A Tung Sol.jpg
 
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Mar 26, 2021 at 4:01 PM Post #1,335 of 4,115
In response to the Brimar builds discussion.

Brimars have a distinct mica shape in my experience.

A black plate clear glass version in Crack.

IMG_8407.jpg

The 6J5GT's all have this base issue (not that it matter's i've used them without any skirt without any issue).
Left is an O getter. Right is a D getter version.
Note the distinct Brimar bottom mica's! A telltale sign it's a Brimar.
Other way to tell; the supports are riveted to the mica's.

IMG_8406.jpg


Here's the versions in my collection. All sound great to me. But as always; get a 6J5 over 6SN7 anytime.
From left to right in the picture.
Grey plates 6SN7GT. Grey plates with black glass 6SN7GT (these have cooling fins above top mica). Black plates 6SN7GT. Black plates 6J5G STC and grey plate 6J5GT.

IMG_8405.jpg
 
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