[tisquinn]

I think probably best for me to just give it up, lol. The hypothetical was not supposed to be the question; it was just my (clearly not great) way of trying to get at the real question: does a balanced cable help only inasmuch as it allows the transducers to plug in to what in some amps is a different-sounding output; or does being balanced itself make a difference—for instance inasmuch as transducers might respond differently exactly because they don't share a ground?

Reading your response, I guess I was assuming some spec referencing in my hypo and was just totally inarticulate about that. I was imagining a manufacturer saying something like "we designed our balanced and SE output with equal care and attention; neither was an afterthought; they share as much of the same inner topology as electronically possible; the circuitry only diverges in the last few elements." Where, so far as the circuitry of the amp is concerned, the only salient difference is whether the ground is separated (and whatever else goes into an amp output being balanced). In your first post, you mentioned that often, the circuitry for the two outputs is totally different. The hypo I'm interested in is the case where they aren't totally different; and I'm interested in that only as a kind of tool to try and ask whether it is the fact that it is balanced that is making the difference, or all the other differences that often, but don't essentially go along with being balanced. But you're totally right! My question is tautological if its just the question "if these sound the same, will they sound the same?" lol

Anyway—no need to respond. You've been generous enough in explaining! I totally get what you are saying; and I don't know anywhere near enough about electronics to know if what I'm saying actually makes sense or if I'm grasping at straws!

 

[Vitaly2017]

Right—of course you'd hear them through the IEM. But (and maybe I'm just not getting it) I still think the thrust of my question is being missed. It still sounds like what you are talking about is that a balanced cable can help an IEM get sound out of the output that, on a given amp or DAP, is better. But suppose you have an amp where you are actually indifferent between the SE and Balanced output sound the same—given the internal design of the amp, there just isn't a difference in the quality of the output other than its being single ended vs having separate grounds (or whatever the actual difference is—I'm sure I'm not saying that right). Is there a benefit in the balanced connection as such, not in virtue of the balanced output of the amp sounding better, but just because the IEMs perform better when have a balanced connection and not a single ended one.

I'm starting to think given your answers that I might just be confused! Maybe the whole point is always just about the amp.

Hehe I guess I sparked a sparkle here by showing my Se cables and a high end dap which has the balanced out put and yet I went the Se route

What you really need to understand and of course what I will be sharing is my personal findings along my journey and doesn't mean you have to take it as a gospel but I believe the rules apply equally to every system if both balanced and Se are fully optimised.

First of all the reason why balance exists is to add more power primarily, second balanced does a passive filter on the music sound waves and eliminates what it decides is noise... So this way you a cleaner sound and more amping to run demanding headphones....

Balanced doesn't mean 100% automatic better results then Se. To my ears all iems sounds better and more natural over Se. When I listen to balanced I hear boosted volumes and frequency uneveness, it has a less natural presentation, bass get louder tighter quicker, vocals get closer and more shouty, treble is agresive and sharp.

Switching to Se things changes 180° everything seems to be even, vocals are more harmonical and timbrally reacher, bass is more round and textured, vocals are not shouty and treble becomes very pleasant and not striking sharp...

For me I had this experience on multiple devices and I realized I had the wrong understanding and comprehension of why and how I was hearing to music. I now realized the Se is the real way the music was designed and created, it is the sound that approaches the reality.

My experiments where observed by using tia fourte og and the noirs with pure copper cables and wm1z and sp2000 copper daps, also 1a and zx507 and a home theater marantz.

In all the scenarios the Se came out as a clear winner in terms of most natural sounding presentation.
With headphones its a bit different and they like power! So balanced can help here. But again you have desktop gear that can do Se with so much power that there is no need for balanced....

Also with my observation the balanced sound seems to erase special harmonics that are untouched by Se and in the result you get a less information. Its like it deletes some aspects of the music thinking its noise but its a crucial element that needs to be there as your brain reads thats information and translates to you more emotions and vibes that you actually enjoy rather then listening to a blacker background with pitch black noiseless music....

It is up to you to discover this, it is all part of the audiophile game and elements to experience

But if you really want to do the test 100% accurately you need 2 cables 1 with Se and 1 with balanced any interconects will screw it and will reduce the results significantly.

 

[GiullianSN]

In this hypothetical case, there’s no difference. You ruled out the main points of a balanced connection. A real balanced amp/dac design will split the whole signal chain in two (simplistically saying), not only the ground, that’s one of the reasons it may sound better. But as @Deezel177 said, your hearing will be the end judge.

 

[tisquinn]

In this hypothetical case, there’s no difference. You ruled out the main points of a balanced connection. A real balanced amp/dac design will split the whole signal chain in two (simplistically saying), not only the ground, that’s one of the reasons it may sound better. But as @Deezel177 said, your hearing will be the end judge.

Got it. Sounding like my hypo was just not at all useful! Thanks all

 

[GiullianSN]

Got it. Sounding like my hypo was just not at all useful! Thanks all

Regarding your question, a cable being balanced or not by itself, doesn't matter anything if the source is not balanced. it needs to be the whole chain balanced, from the DAC to the AMP to the grounds to the IEM cable and finally to be reproduced by the IEM. buying Balanced cables to use with adapters on SE connector won't make the IEM sound any better than if that cable was SE to start with. what may affect the sound will be the adapter used if not with the same cable material, but that's another rabbit hole.

 

[tisquinn]

Regarding your question, a cable being balanced or not by itself, doesn't matter anything if the source is not balanced. it needs to be the whole chain balanced, from the DAC to the AMP to the grounds to the IEM cable and finally to be reproduced by the IEM. buying Balanced cables to use with adapters on SE connector won't make the IEM sound any better than if that cable was SE to start with. what may affect the sound will be the adapter used if not with the same cable material, but that's another rabbit hole.

thankfully I wasn't so confused as to think that was a good idea!

 

[GiullianSN]

thankfully I wasn't so confused as to think that was a good idea!

That's totally ok, the companies confuses everyone a lot. A lot of products are marketed as they have balanced connection, but the design itself is not fully balanced.

 

[Deezel177]

thankfully I wasn't so confused as to think that was a good idea!

@CrocodileDundee makes several incredibly-good points that I ultimately deleted in the several drafts prior to what I finally posted. But, yeah, ultimately, a balanced cable is just a means to connect an IEM to a source's balanced output. It itself doesn't do anything special. But, if you did have the option between getting a balanced or an SE cable, it's always better to get the balanced option, because you can then adapt it into SE whenever you need to. Whereas, if you went SE, you wouldn't be able to use an adapter to convert it into a balanced cable, and you'd have to get a whole other cable to use with balanced sources.

 

[tisquinn]

Got it. Thank you all!!!

 

[Vitaly2017]

Got it. Thank you all!!!

Just try both and then use all your cables in that termination you prefer. Its as simple like that

 

[KuroKitsu]

I feel like people might be overcomplicating balanced cables. I just get 4.4 because it's more chonky and durable than the other options. And the occasionally need where a gear needs more juice (but thats not the norm)

 

[GiullianSN]

I feel like people might be overcomplicating balanced cables. I just get 4.4 because it's more chonky and durable than the other options. And the occasionally need where a gear needs more juice (but thats not the norm)

I did change all my cables to 4.4mm and now I’m extremely restricted in sources options. Or, I need toembrace the adapters again. First world problems.

 

[KuroKitsu]

I did change all my cables to 4.4mm and now I’m extremely restricted in sources options. Or, I need toembrace the adapters again. First world problems.

First world problems indeed. I basically had 2 pigtail adapters made when I made the full switch to 4.4: to 4 pin XLR and 3.5. Essentially that would meet the majority of my use cases. I'm usually going from 2.5 to 4.4 anyways in most cases.

 

[gLer]

But, if you did have the option between getting a balanced or an SE cable, it's always better to get the balanced option, because you can then adapt it into SE whenever you need to. Whereas, if you went SE, you wouldn't be able to use an adapter to convert it into a balanced cable, and you'd have to get a whole other cable to use with balanced sources.

This. Regardless of whether you think SE is better than balanced or vice versa, getting a balanced cable for your IEMs means you can always choose between outputs. Getting a super expensive cable with an SE termination means you're permanently stuck with SE, regardless of whether or not the DAP or amp you're using has been optimised for balanced (and many DAPs/amps that feature a fully balanced output have been optimised for balanced). In other words, don't limit your options because SE and/or balanced might be FOTM. SE cables also have a much lower resale value FWIW.

 

[GiullianSN]

Yeah... the SE vs Bal discussion is definitely a tricky one. As we’ve seen here and on many other threads. The decision will always be a “balance”. SE will have many, many more source options and really high end ones. Specially desktop and tubes.
SE will suffer less from overpowered sources as you’re not almost doubling the output of the amp.
SE will be less subjective to adapters and still can be connect to balanced connection and get the double power (but will lose the channel separation)

balanced benefits were pretty much covered before.

Benefits of the balanced connection are not always perceptible to many people.

It’s a gimmick nice to have, but IMHO it’s more about trend and each one personal choice.

PS.: Said the guy that changed all cables to 4.4mm.