The FiiO X3 2nd gen (ex X3K, X3II) Thread : 192K/24B, CS4398,Native DSD, USB DAC with LO and inline remote

Jul 31, 2015 at 6:01 PM Post #5,071 of 9,972
My answer was meant to be transparent as possible without being patronising. I use 1024 samples as it falls into the lower timings of the Haas effect at about 23.2ms it gives my system stability.
 
Jul 31, 2015 at 9:14 PM Post #5,072 of 9,972

sorry for a noob question, when i connect a portable amp to the line out of fiio x3 what dac is being used, what am i listening to the dac of the x3, knowing the amp has no dac in it

 
Just to clarify further.  If you use the digital out (coax) - you are sending a digital signal, and require a separate DAC at the other end to convert it to analog
 
If you are using line-out, then you are using a fixed level signal from the X3ii DAC - you're just bypassing its amp
 
If you are using headphone out, you're using the X3ii DAC and amp section
 
  The Shure 846 IEM's, seriously?  The ones with multiple filter-rings for different sound signatures?  Daaaang son, you have WAY more money to spare on audiophile-equipment than I do, I'm pretty jealous right now ;)  Those things are like a thousand bucks, right?  Where'd you get them?

Anyway man, about the amp. . .with the Shure 846, I wouldn't use the amp at all, ever, if I were you!  There's just no need.  Those things, like other IEM's, are very low-impedance because they are meant for portable use more than anything.  In fact, the impedance on the 846's is especially low, at only 9 ohms.  There is no reason to drive them from an amp, and in fact, you SHOULDN'T drive them from an amp, it could end up, worst-case-scenario, blowing-out drivers in the earphones due to over-driving them with too much power for them to handle!  Also, make sure that when driving the 846's from the X3, you have the player set to low-gain, not high-gain.

Headphone amps are meant for HIGH impedance headphones,j and won't benefit the sound at all in something like the majority of IEM's.

Also, dang, if you were able to spend a thousand dollars on a pair of earphones, why don't you splurge and get a really super high-end Astell and Kern music player instead of the X3, or at least the X5?  If I were you that's what I'd do :p

One more question.  out of curiosity, what filters do you generally use on the 846's, from among the custom filters that come with it for changing the sound?

 
Just a couple of things - because using a dedicated amplifier is not just about having high impedance earphones - and they often DO benefit sound from IEMs.  Here's a few scenarios .....
  1. If your DAP has a higher impedance from the H/O and you have very low impedance IEMs. Damping factor, and frequency response can be affected - so an amplifier with better specs can correct this.
  2. If your IEMs are very sensitive, and your DAP has a higher noise floor, you can often get hiss.  This can be corrected by using  a better amplifier.
  3. If your DAP output is weak, and you're over-driving your earphones into clipping.  A better amp can help
  4. And if (like hykhleif) you want hardware EQ rather than software EQ, or if you just like the particular tonality of an amp, that can be a factor as well.
 
Saying all of this though, the X3ii shouldn't have issues with noise floor, SNR, impedance or power - so generally I'd agree that most IEMs won't need an extra amp as long as the source is good.
 
Ah, I see, that makes sense.  Just be sure to be absolutely positive that the amp isn't over-driving the IEM's, because it would be a REAL shame to blow out a driver in a 1000 dollar pair of earphones!  Personally, I love the sound of the Fiio X3 2nd Gen, without any EQ, through my V-Moda M-80's. . .but they cost less than a fifth as much as the SRH846, haha :p

 
Shure doesn't list maximum input, but I seriously doubt you'd be able to damage the SE846 using the digizoid - though over driving them. You'd deafen yourself long before that happened 
wink.gif
 
 
Jul 31, 2015 at 9:42 PM Post #5,073 of 9,972
   
Just to clarify further.  If you use the digital out (coax) - you are sending a digital signal, and require a separate DAC at the other end to convert it to analog
 
If you are using line-out, then you are using a fixed level signal from the X3ii DAC - you're just bypassing its amp
 
If you are using headphone out, you're using the X3ii DAC and amp section
 
 
Just a couple of things - because using a dedicated amplifier is not just about having high impedance earphones - and they often DO benefit sound from IEMs.  Here's a few scenarios .....
  1. If your DAP has a higher impedance from the H/O and you have very low impedance IEMs. Damping factor, and frequency response can be affected - so an amplifier with better specs can correct this.
  2. If your IEMs are very sensitive, and your DAP has a higher noise floor, you can often get hiss.  This can be corrected by using  a better amplifier.
  3. If your DAP output is weak, and you're over-driving your earphones into clipping.  A better amp can help
  4. And if (like hykhleif) you want hardware EQ rather than software EQ, or if you just like the particular tonality of an amp, that can be a factor as well.
 
Saying all of this though, the X3ii shouldn't have issues with noise floor, SNR, impedance or power - so generally I'd agree that most IEMs won't need an extra amp as long as the source is good.
 
 
Shure doesn't list maximum input, but I seriously doubt you'd be able to damage the SE846 using the digizoid - though over driving them. You'd deafen yourself long before that happened 
wink.gif
 


Well it sounds like you know a lot more about it than I do, after-all, so I will take your word for it, man :)

So for example, if I were listening to the V-Moda M-80 (Impedance about 30 ohms, but power rating not stated by V-Moda, but we can assume is very high since they are obsessed with making stuff as durable as possible, and sensitivity 105dB @ 1kHz 1mW) or to the Sony MDR-1A (impedance 24ohms, power-handlingn 1500mW, sensitivity 105db @ 1mW) from the X3ii, would I get ANY benefit, sound-wise, from pairing it with, say, a Fiio E11k portable amp, or would I not notice any difference in sound besides possibly volume and the ability to get an analog bass-boost?
 
Jul 31, 2015 at 10:01 PM Post #5,074 of 9,972
Both have reasonably benign power requirements, and the X3ii should be a be to drive them easily - on high or low gain. Because of the X3ii's low output impedance, there shouldn't be any issues with damping.
 
In my own tests, there is very little difference bewteen the X3ii H/O and L/O
 
So that leaves you with preference.  If you like the sound of the E11K in the mix, then definitely use it.  It's not required, and it's not going to change the oft-quoted "sound-stage" / "detail" / "dynamics" etc.
 
The biggest issue with most people comparing amped vs non-amped (especially with headphones that don't need it) is that most don't volume match.  So the differences are usually actually only in volume.  It's quite funny really.  Turn up the volume slightly and what do you notice - more vivid sound, more detail, more dynamics etc - our human perceptions 
wink.gif

 
I have the E11K as well - it's a good amp. I personally don't use mine a lot - yet I do use the E17K from time to time - with headphones that don't really need it.  My reason is simple - I like its tonality, I like the analog tone controls, and I like the better battery life I get from my DAPs.
 
Jul 31, 2015 at 10:31 PM Post #5,076 of 9,972
I grabbed one of these little buggers, even though I wanted to pick up an Oppo HA2 to pair w/ my phone...I think I made the right call, since I needed a new iem as well.

I've owned the X3i and X5i. I'm sure most of you know this, but it bears repeating: Ergonomically, the X3ii is worlds better than either. It even drove my AKG K7XXs better than it had any right to. Just waiting on my OTG cable now for my phone.

I'm hoping I can download the Fiio's drivers for my work laptop so I can use Tidal at work.

Looking forward to pairing it with my new Dunu DN 1000. For $300, the Fiio and Dunu should be a nice little setup.
 
Jul 31, 2015 at 10:37 PM Post #5,077 of 9,972
  Woot woot, went to start my computer red light on X3 w.e play song no audio w.e go to shut it off and BSOD :D
 
 


Oooooh boy, THAT IS NOT GOOD.  What version of Windows are you running?  Can you give us any more details on the error that ocurred?  It is entirely possible that this is some sort of problem with your Windows OS, and has nothing actually to do with the Fiio X3ii itself.  After-all, plenty of people have used the Fiio X3ii as a computer DAC pretty much since it first came out, and without any probems. . .

Wait hold on, is that error-screen on the X3ii, not your computer????? Because THAT would be. . .well. . .something I didn't even know can happen?  Lol.
  Both have reasonably benign power requirements, and the X3ii should be a be to drive them easily - on high or low gain. Because of the X3ii's low output impedance, there shouldn't be any issues with damping.
 
In my own tests, there is very little difference bewteen the X3ii H/O and L/O
 
So that leaves you with preference.  If you like the sound of the E11K in the mix, then definitely use it.  It's not required, and it's not going to change the oft-quoted "sound-stage" / "detail" / "dynamics" etc.
 
The biggest issue with most people comparing amped vs non-amped (especially with headphones that don't need it) is that most don't volume match.  So the differences are usually actually only in volume.  It's quite funny really.  Turn up the volume slightly and what do you notice - more vivid sound, more detail, more dynamics etc - our human perceptions 
wink.gif

 
I have the E11K as well - it's a good amp. I personally don't use mine a lot - yet I do use the E17K from time to time - with headphones that don't really need it.  My reason is simple - I like its tonality, I like the analog tone controls, and I like the better battery life I get from my DAPs.


Thanks for the advice.  I figured that was the answer, that with low-impedance headphones like those the amp wouldn't really prove necessary and wouldn't change anything like the soundstage or dynamics, but since you seem to know a lot about it I wanted to get your two-cents on it.  So yeah, I don't think I'll bother getting an amp, at least not until I'm rich enough one day to get some HD800's or some high-end Planar Magnetics ^_^
 
Jul 31, 2015 at 10:47 PM Post #5,078 of 9,972
Don't worry about it, I just wanted to share that. Is epic to BSOD a device other than windows. I just reset it lol, have to do that a lot for FIIO products for me any ways. I think I fried them a little when I plugged a digital cable with variating poles in backwards. Still works just keep a pin in your pocket :) am used to it
 
But yes that is something isn't it, especially since it was shutting off when it failed you can even see the "see you" in the picture.
 
Jul 31, 2015 at 10:58 PM Post #5,079 of 9,972
  Don't worry about it, I just wanted to share that. Is epic to BSOD a device other than windows. I just reset it lol, have to do that a lot for FIIO products for me any ways. I think I fried them a little when I plugged a digital cable with variating poles in backwards. Still works just keep a pin in your pocket :) am used to it
 
But yes that is something isn't it, especially since it was shutting off when it failed you can even see the "see you" in the picture.


What happens when you reset it?  It doesn't affect the stuff on the Micro SD inside, does it?

And oh wow I just spotted that "See You" in the background, holy crap, that is so weird, hahahahaha, what the heck.

Edit:  And it seems like it spit out some long string of hexadecimal memory-addresses?  What he heck is even going on there, seriously?  It's got to be completely indecipherable for anyone who doesn't actually haev access to the entirety of the source-code for the device's firmware.
 
Jul 31, 2015 at 11:13 PM Post #5,080 of 9,972
 
What happens when you reset it?  It doesn't affect the stuff on the Micro SD inside, does it?

And oh wow I just spotted that "See You" in the background, holy crap, that is so weird, hahahahaha, what the heck.

Edit:  And it seems like it spit out some long string of hexadecimal memory-addresses?  What he heck is even going on there, seriously?  It's got to be completely indecipherable for anyone who doesn't actually haev access to the entirety of the source-code for the device's firmware.

I do a soft reset, it just shuts off and turns on. Doesn't effect anything at all is just a hardware reset, I'm sure if you held it down it would do a factory reset but shouldn't have any effect on your card. You can all ways remove it though if you're worried, I don't like too as it goes shooting out. 

Yeah sorry my camera reverses everything as I don't have the software installed :/ Says Cause 00000000 --> Table Load then only 3 lines actually contain data. Very weird, not sure what cause 0 would be though.
 
Jul 31, 2015 at 11:14 PM Post #5,081 of 9,972
  Thanks for the advice.  I figured that was the answer, that with low-impedance headphones like those the amp wouldn't really prove necessary and wouldn't change anything like the soundstage or dynamics, but since you seem to know a lot about it I wanted to get your two-cents on it.  So yeah, I don't think I'll bother getting an amp, at least not until I'm rich enough one day to get some HD800's or some high-end Planar Magnetics ^_^

 
Always work on a combination of impedance and sensitivity - both figures are required to work out how much power is needed.  And for an understandable lesson on relationships between current, voltage and resistance - try this link (https://learn.sparkfun.com/tutorials/voltage-current-resistance-and-ohms-law) - I found it really helpful 
smile.gif
.
 
It wont be just the high impedance cans that need additional amping.  Take the K701 - 62 ohms, but lower sensitivity - depending on HOW you measure it.  This article you'll find really interesting (https://lsirui.wordpress.com/2009/04/15/k701-vs-hd650-electrical-measurement/).  So unless you pair it with a high current amp, you never really get an idea of how well they can perform. And no way an X3ii or X5ii can drive them well unless you use a dedicated amp.  You'll get volume - but they'll sound thin.
 
Anyway - getting slightly off topic. I've found the X3ii to be marvelous by itself with most IEMs, but I still us an amp from time to time if bulk is not an issue.  Not because it needs extra power, but rather because I like the other things an amp can bring.
 
Jul 31, 2015 at 11:19 PM Post #5,082 of 9,972
   
Always work on a combination of impedance and sensitivity - both figures are required to work out how much power is needed.  And for an understandable lesson on relationships between current, voltage and resistance - try this link (https://learn.sparkfun.com/tutorials/voltage-current-resistance-and-ohms-law) - I found it really helpful 
smile.gif
.
 
It wont be just the high impedance cans that need additional amping.  Take the K701 - 62 ohms, but lower sensitivity - depending on HOW you measure it.  This article you'll find really interesting (https://lsirui.wordpress.com/2009/04/15/k701-vs-hd650-electrical-measurement/).  So unless you pair it with a high current amp, you never really get an idea of how well they can perform. And no way an X3ii or X5ii can drive them well unless you use a dedicated amp.  You'll get volume - but they'll sound thin.
 
Anyway - getting slightly off topic. I've found the X3ii to be marvelous by itself with most IEMs, but I still us an amp from time to time if bulk is not an issue.  Not because it needs extra power, but rather because I like the other things an amp can bring.


Thanks for the links!  As someone with a Masters in Math and for whom Physics and Engineering were always hobbies of great interest, I find the electrical-engineering aspects of headphones and speakers endlessly fascinating, now that I am finally starting to learn about them :)  Also the acoustic-engineering, of course ;)

Edit:  Now that I actually checked the first link, yes it's fascinating but it's stuff I did, in fact, already know.  Just Ohm's Law and all that jazz, nothing the least bit complicated as far as I think.  Then again, I was a prodigy and took a course in Calculus Based University Physics at George Washington University through a gifted-and-talented program when I was 13. . .

You got anything you can refer me to that covers the specific technicalities of voltage, resistance, power, etc. as they apply to headphones in-particular, especially their sensitivity?  Basically, what I'm looking for is something, as technical as necessary for me to really understand waht's going on, where someone works out some kind of formula or means of computing the best range of power for driving a pair of headphones when taking into account their impedance, sensitivity, and power-handling-capacity all at once. . .
 
Aug 1, 2015 at 7:58 AM Post #5,083 of 9,972
I'd like to say hi to everyone :)

This is my first post in this forum & I've been following Head fi for a while. This is indeed a very informative site & everyone is eager to help. As someone new, I'd want to ask two questions... dont know if these have been asked previously...

"How better is the x3k compared to iPod touch 4g ? "
Also
"How is the overall performance with Shure SRH1540 ? "
As I have a plan to buy SRH1540 & x3k and have some months to decide... So I'm eager to know.

Thanks in advance.
 
Aug 1, 2015 at 11:18 AM Post #5,084 of 9,972
I'd like to say hi to everyone
smily_headphones1.gif


This is my first post in this forum & I've been following Head fi for a while. This is indeed a very informative site & everyone is eager to help. As someone new, I'd want to ask two questions... dont know if these have been asked previously...

"How better is the x3k compared to iPod touch 4g ? "
Also
"How is the overall performance with Shure SRH1540 ? "
As I have a plan to buy SRH1540 & x3k and have some months to decide... So I'm eager to know.

Thanks in advance.


The performance with the SRH1540 should, by all means, be MIND-BOGGLINGLY GOOD.  However, about comparing to the iPod touch 4g. . .I have no idea, as I haven't listened to the latter.  But if I had to guess, I'd say that the X3ii almost CERTAINLY sounds a good deal better (freq-response, soundstage, imaging, etc.) than the iPod 4g, considering that NO iPod or Zune or anything along those lines which I have listened to, manages to touch the sound-quality of the x3ii
 
Aug 1, 2015 at 11:34 AM Post #5,085 of 9,972
I thought you guys would be VERY interested to know, I managed to do a frequency-response test on my Fiio X3ii.  My setup was far from ideal, sure, but this is what I did, and the results were remarkable:
 
I took the USB cable for the X3ii and plugged it into my computer to use the X3ii in DAC mode (which of course gives the same frequency-response as the X3ii on its own, as long as it's getting bit-perfect input from the computer, and I used the ASIO drivers to make sure that it was), then took a 3.5-to-3.5 cable and plugged the output from the X3ii into the line-in on a Creative Sound Blaster 1095 external sound-card my friend had been lending me, which I had plugged in to another USB on the computer.  Then, I ran the RightMark Audio Analyzer Benchmarking program with output from the Fiio X3ii via ASIO, input from the line-in on the Sound Blaster, and the frequency response graph I ended up getting was REMARKABLE.  Namely, in the entirety of the audible frequency range from 20Hz to 20kHz, the variation in response never varied by more than 1.2 decibels, and that was only at the extreme ends of hte spectrum. . .between 25hz and 15khz, the variation was less than 0.4db!  This is opposed to the response from the Sound Blaster itself, which varied by about 2.5 decibels (still very good, mind you :p), and the one from my computer's onboard Realtek sound, which was AWFUL and varied by about 10 decibels or more in some parts of the treble and bass ranges!  Keep in mind that my computer has built-in Beats Audio (UGH, seriously), but that I de-activated the Beats Audio in the control-panel for the test I did of the onboard sound.  I also did another test of the on-board, this time having it use ASIO4ALL, and it was much better. . .no more than 4.5db variation, the VAST majority of which was now almost entirely in the low-bass between 20 and 28hz, and the extremely high treble between 17kHz and 20kHz.

There was one interesting part, though.  Namely, the DYNAMIC RANGE of the response from the X3ii was vastly INFERIOR to that from the Sound Blaster or from onboard sound when using ASIO4ALL.  The onboard with ASIO had about 80db dynamic-range, and the Sound Blaster gave about 88db, while the X3ii gave about 62db.  But I have a theory that this may be an inaccurate result. . .namely, the fact that the test of the X3ii, with the non-ideal setup I had to use, required me to "double-up" USB ports. . .one for output, then another separate USB for the input back into the computer.  I think this may have compounded the noise-floor in the signal from teh X3ii, especially with the addition of whatever noise was being produced by the signal passing-through the Sound Blaster card.
 

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