[mgoodman]

Is it just me?

DAC/Amp topology savvy Head Fi'ers have no doubt known all along M8's weren't/couldn't be "truly" balanced...Those with out this knowledge and purchased an M8 because of this claimed feature were at best mislead, at worst, draw your own conclusion....Simple...

What's definitely more unfortunate, when having the opportunity to clarify in detail (as he's done today), when correcting Kenny Mr. goodman chose a different path...

Very Disappointing!

1) Our website and blog have always stated that HiFi-M8 features balanced outputs. We never claimed that it was a balanced amp. Please let me know if anywhere in our materials this is said differently.
2) Which statement by Kenny did I contradict? Could you point out what you are referring to?
 
Thanks, Michael

 

[georgelai57]

We're sorry to see you go and thanks for the learning opportunity!

Sarcasm from the CEO. Very unbecoming. Needs PR help.

 

[mgoodman]

Sarcasm from the CEO. Very unbecoming. Needs PR help.

Not sarcasm. Truly sorry to have disappointed you. And yes, hoping to become a better company through the experience.

 

[georgelai57]

Not sarcasm. Truly sorry to have disappointed you. And yes, hoping to become a better company through the experience.

Alright, let's draw a line under the whole thing. It's water under the bridge.

 

[headwhacker]

That must explain why I don't hear any difference between balance and unbalanced input with my T1. Not that it doesn't sound good, but 1 of the reason I got M8 is so I can hear how a balanced setup sound different from unbalanced. I guess it will take a "fully balanced" to discern any difference.

Like pink panther pointed out It appears M8 is only balanced on the output but not "fully balanced" all throughout the signal chain. As a portable device, going balance now seems pointless. An adequately shielded or twisted 3-wire unbalance cable is sufficient to keep interference from degrading the signal. I can't think of any reason for running ridiculously long cable runs between M8 and a headphone to realize the benefit of going balanced.

I was thinking of reterminating my ciem cable for balance connection. But I guess it will have no benefits at all.

 

[ExpatinJapan]

  1) Our website and blog have always stated that HiFi-M8 features balanced outputs. We never claimed that it was a balanced amp. Please let me know if anywhere in our materials this is said differently.
2) Which statement by Kenny did I contradict? Could you point out what you are referring to?
 
Thanks, Michael

2).  http://www.head-fi.org/t/622939/the-centrance-hifi-m8-thread/3735#post_9891389
 

 
(For your reference). 
I dont see any contradiction myself.
 
_______________________________________________________________________________
 

Sarcasm from the CEO. Very unbecoming. Needs PR help.

  Not sarcasm. Truly sorry to have disappointed you. And yes, hoping to become a better company through the experience.

*Having met Mr.Goodman several times I truly believe his intention was to be sincere in his reply and definitely not sarcasm. imho.

 

[ExpatinJapan]

  Going through the blog, dont know if its helpful or not...anyway, I am tired after that.
 
The posts are fairly old and from the early days of development.
 
http://centrance.com/products/new/blog/2012/08/20/balanced-outputs/
 
http://centrance.com/products/new/blog/2012/08/22/unbalanced-outputs/
 
http://centrance.com/products/new/blog/2012/12/26/the-smallest-pcb/

The historical blog posts seem in line with Mr.Goodmans recent statements also.

 

[mgoodman]

Thanks Damon. Appreciate your help in looking this up. I see that we've always said the same thing and there is not much contradiction with what Kenny said earlier either, except as an engineer I would have wanted to tighten that language up a bit. Sounds like we've been consistent all along.

 

[mgoodman]

That must explain why I don't hear any difference between balance and unbalanced input with my T1. Not that it doesn't sound good,

. An adequately shielded or twisted 3-wire unbalance cable is sufficient to keep interference from degrading the signal. I can't think of any reason for running ridiculously long cable runs between M8 and a headphone to realize the benefit of going balanced.

I was thinking of reterminating my ciem cable for balance connection. But I guess it will have no benefits at all.

Here is the deal. I don't buy into inflated marketing myself, so what I have designed is truly a useful unit, not something that sounds good on paper.

"Fully balanced" sounds good on paper. The problem with it is power consumption. Battery runs down almost twice as fast.

What one really needs is the ability to drive headphone cables without picking up interference. What one also needs is loud output. We have achieved both of those goals in the HiFi-M8 without resorting to a fully balanced circuit, but rather by using smart engineering decisions. Our unit sounds as good as fully balanced because it's designed right and that's why it's hard to hear the difference.

The DAC is balanced and so is the filter stage. That's where signal level is lowest and sensitivity is high. That's where balanced internal circuitry is important. Right after that the signal is ramped up to a high enough level that running balanced adds no benefit in signal/noise ratio, but only drains the battery. The smart thing to do is not to drain the battery, so we run unbalanced after that point, since balanced not needed for quality sound in that part of the circuit. Then, we balance the lines again right before the output jack, to minimize interference and cross-talk. And we do this in a way that best conserves the battery.

In summary, for sound quality look to CEntrance. For Marketing hype, look elsewhere. We don't have marketing people designing our products. We have engineers doing that and we make appropriate choices at every stage along the way to keep customer's needs at the top of the list.

 

[BitDepth]

2).  [COLOR=FF4400]http://www.head-fi.org/t/622939/the-centrance-hifi-m8-thread/3735#post_9891389[/COLOR]




(For your reference). 
I dont see any contradiction myself.

*Having met Mr.Goodman several times I truly believe his intention was to be sincere in his reply and definitely not sarcasm. imho.

"Kenny is correct" would have been less confusing....

 

[cucera]

"Kenny is correct" would have been less confusing....

He was correct, at least without too much engineering details like "impedance balanced".

 

[jexby]

1.  it was good to see mgoodman make an appearance here (after months of being busy on 'real work') for an important topic clarification.
 
2.  maybe everyone was getting a bit testy that a new "highest powered" battery DAC/Amp is coming soon (iFi micro iDSD) to compete with the M8?
except for 4pin XLR connector and Lightning USB input (which remains high-res limited).

 

[jexby]

Question for M8 owners with IEM mod:
 
other than "fewer cables/links and convenience"
why would M8 owners permanently reduce the output of their M8 unit by choosing the $99 IEM mod?
vs.
buying a good quality attenuator (short cable, 3.5mm) for use with IEMs and the M8?
(which would still leave enough M8 power for full-sized cans when needed)
 
Thanks.

 

[cucera]

The IEM Mod is about lower noise floor not loudness. An attenuator is not optimal for multi BA IEMs as the output impedance is changed and most of them need that to be at least <2 or even <1 Ohms. Otherwise the frequency response of the multi BA is changed.

 

[moodyrn]

I've been away from this thread for a while, but WOW!! Imagine my surprise to find that it's not really balanced. But I would like to applaud Michael for chiming in to explain things. So, is there any real benefit to using the balanced out? If not, then I must say I'm a bit disappointed for several reasons. First, when people think of balanced, they don't necessarily  thing of "impedance" balanced. And of course not all amps claiming to be balanced are not really balanced. But at the very least they are bridged which would mean the + and - terminals are both actively driven. That's what many feel is the only benefit of running headphones balanced. So all of the discussions previously about this having a balanced amp is misleading. Although technically no one actually lied. This is what leads to my reasons of being a bit disappointed.
 
First, had I  known that this wasn't really a balanced amp, I wouldn't have chopped up my very nice plusound solid core silver cable with it's nice viablue 1/8in connector in favor of a less audiophile friendly neutrick 4pin xlr. This added a ton of unnecessary bulk and weight to my jh13s. And I also wouldn't have chopped up the stock cable on my d600s, removing the iphone control etc, to make them balanced. I'm also reminded of another headfier who did major surgery on his momentums so that they could be balanced to go with his hifi m8. I can't even imagine the ones not in the diy crowd who spent serious coin to make their cans balanced. 
 
I of course wouldn't have opted for the very large and unnecessary fullsized  4pin balanced connector that's an eye sore imo. The explanation Michael gave would have been good to know in the beginning instead of misleading people into thinking the m8 was balanced.
 
But does this mean I'm putting mine up on the forsale forum? Not a chance. Remember I said a bit disappointed and not very disappointed. At the end of the day, this thing sounds incredible for a battery power device(or any device). And I think it's still a downright bargain at 699. But had I've known what I know now it would have saved me a lot of time, trouble, and a little money on supplies.