[yokken]

I am not suggesting you are a snob. However, I think you are giving people the wrong idea. Some people can afford to maybe sell some video games, an Xbox, maybe an old pair of headphones, and buy the DT880s and an E17. However, a Lyr, Crack, or comparable desktop amp costs significantly more than the headphones themselves. Suggesting that something like the O2 cannot drive the DT880s is simply ludicrous; of course it can. It may not sound up to your standards, but I think the majority of people will find that their setup which cost them easily $400 sounds simply marvelous. Most people cannot afford $400-$1000 amps. If they do not know what they are missing, then they are hearing as good as they know of. Please don't rob them of that enjoyment.

 

[Graphicism]

Quote:

I am not suggesting you are a snob. However, I think you are giving people the wrong idea. Some people can afford to maybe sell some video games, an Xbox, maybe an old pair of headphones, and buy the DT880s and an E17. However, a Lyr, Crack, or comparable desktop amp costs significantly more than the headphones themselves. Suggesting that something like the O2 cannot drive the DT880s is simply ludicrous; of course it can. It may not sound up to your standards, but I think the majority of people will find that their setup which cost them easily $400 sounds simply marvelous. Most people cannot afford $400-$1000 amps. If they do not know what they are missing, then they are hearing as good as they know of. Please don't rob them of that enjoyment.

 
It's not even about the money, my Darkvoice cost me $150 back in the day. It's simply about getting the best bang for your buck and when you're only getting about 80% of your purchase there are other, better options available. The O2, Fiio, nuforce and other relatively new devices in small packages are similar to the beats in that they look cool, you're paying extra for it. If you're sat down at a desk there is no reason to skimp on size for performance.
 
Another way to look at it; A $30 JVC HARX700 on a $120 Zero DAC sounds better than a $250 Beyerdynamic on a $25 soundcard. So if anything this 'amp as an afterthought' approach is if anything robbing people of that enjoyment.
 
When I first came to Head-Fi many years ago I was told crap-in, crap-out. Get a good source, an adequate amp and a headphone to suit your musical tastes. Since around 2009 (Beats-era) there was a massive flood of newcomers to Head-Fi and along with it not only copious amounts of misinformation but people were purely interested in headphones, as opposed to the music. Unfortunately this flood washed out a lot of the regulars because the newcomers spoke louder and more frequently, and this is the result.
 
EDIT: I'm simply saying I've noticed a changed through the years. It's gone from entire chain recommendations to headphone only.
 
You say yourself; "They definitely improve noticeably with better amps" ~ yet at the same time seem to not care? 

 

[Bill-P]

Quote:

...If they do not know what they are missing, then they are hearing as good as they know of. Please don't rob them of that enjoyment.

 
I'd look at it from another angle. If people know they are not hearing as much as they can, then they have something to look forward to.
 
And of course they only have to update to better amps moving forward...

 

[MrEleventy]

There's always those that will be satisfied with what they have and then there are those who chase that last 1%. I don't feel that either of you are wrong, just that you fall in different categories. For the most part, neither side is going to change the others mind so just let things be. the settlers won't understand why the chasers are spending more on upgrading cables than the original hps themselves and chasers won't understand why settlers are complacent with their " under powered" equipment. just two sides of a coin imo.

 

[MrEleventy]

it's also not THAT much more for a more powerful amp nowadays. lake people g103 is 250, selling the e17 can get you almost half way there. same if you have an o2.

 

[Chris J]

There's always those that will be satisfied with what they have and then there are those who chase that last 1%. I don't feel that either of you are wrong, just that you fall in different categories. For the most part, neither side is going to change the others mind so just let things be. the settlers won't understand why the chasers are spending more on upgrading cables than the original hps themselves and chasers won't understand why settlers are complacent with their " under powered" equipment. just two sides of a coin imo.

+1

I'd look at it from another angle. If people know they are not hearing as much as they can, then they have something to look forward to.

And of course they only have to update to better amps moving forward...

+1

 

[MrEleventy]

I'd look at it from another angle. If people know they are not hearing as much as they can, then they have something to look forward to.

And of course they only have to update to better amps moving forward...

i agree, that's why I appreciate hps like the beyer dts and the senn hd6xx since they scale well to the equipment that you have. they sound good stock but get better with the new stuff you get.

 

[seag33k]

Quote:

it's also not THAT much more for a more powerful amp nowadays. lake people g103 is 250, selling the e17 can get you almost half way there. same if you have an o2.

At this point I have no interest in selling my E17 for a desktop amp because I use it so much when I am not at my desk.  Sure, down the road a desktop amp would be a great addition, but I need something portable as well.  Maybe the DT880s aren't the right headphones given I am not always able to carry an amp like this around.

 

[yokken]

It's not that I don't care, it's that the E17 is good enough for me when I am not at my desk. If people want the DT880 sound, you can't quite just tell them "just go buy the $150 DT880s instead." You can give them recommendations of similar headphones, but in my opinion a DT880, be it 250ohm or 600ohm, sounds perfectly acceptable with lesser amps to people who have not heard/are not used to anything better. There's always a starting point and just to drive my original point home, I will say it again: there is no reason to say amps like the O2 or E17 cannot drive the DT880s, because they can. Just not to their fullest potential. When people are ready to make the jump to a more expensive amp or DAC, they will. But there are definitely acceptable and appreciable steps along the way.

 

[Bill-P]

With the E17, there are more chances of the headphone clipping, so that's why I don't think the amp can "drive" the headphone per se.
 
The O2 also clips when it's on high gain (which it may be occasionally if it's trying to drive something like the DT880 600), and it's connected to a source that outputs >2.1Vrms.
 
Not hearing the DT880 at its best, and potentially causing damage (by clipping) to the DT880 are IMO two completely different things. In that case, I think extreme caution needs to be taken with either the E17 or the O2 to avoid those situations.
 
And personally, that's why I don't think the E17 or O2 are "acceptable" or even "appreciable" for the DT880. But that's just me.

 

[yokken]

So, what, people should stick to low end headphones with low power requirements until they can afford to drop $1000 on a setup that will allow them to hear any headphones to their fullest potential? I just don't see the sense in that. I haven't heard of any damage being caused by underpowering/underamping a pair of headphones. Maybe I just haven't been on Head-Fi long enough to see those incidents.

 

[Graphicism]

Quote:

So, what, people should stick to low end headphones with low power requirements until they can afford to drop $1000 on a setup that will allow them to hear any headphones to their fullest potential? I just don't see the sense in that. I haven't heard of any damage being caused by underpowering/underamping a pair of headphones. Maybe I just haven't been on Head-Fi long enough to see those incidents.

 
Why do you keep going back to thousand dollar amplifiers, my Darkvoice 336i can be had for around $200... I use this with 600Ohm DT880s and 25Ohm D7000s with absolutely no problems. Your O2 and Fiios are like Beats, you pay a lot for not a lot.

 

[wolfetan44]

With the E17, there are more chances of the headphone clipping, so that's why I don't think the amp can "drive" the headphone per se.

The O2 also clips when it's on high gain (which it may be occasionally if it's trying to drive something like the DT880 600), and it's connected to a source that outputs >2.1Vrms.

Not hearing the DT880 at its best, and potentially causing damage (by clipping) to the DT880 are IMO two completely different things. In that case, I think extreme caution needs to be taken with either the E17 or the O2 to avoid those situations.

And personally, that's why I don't think the E17 or O2 are "acceptable" or even "appreciable" for the DT880. But that's just me.

Not sure what O2 your listening to, but on my 600's I am on low gain and go to about 40% to get a level that I like.

 

[yokken]

Quote:

 
Why do you keep going back to thousand dollar amplifiers, my Darkvoice 336i can be had for around $200... I use this with 600Ohm DT880s and 25Ohm D7000s with absolutely no problems. Your O2 and Fiios are like Beats, you pay a lot for not a lot.

 
I'm talking about the entire setup in general. DAC, amp, and headphones themselves. It's like you're saying unless you can afford to fully amp a pair of headphones, don't get them at all. I think that's just ridiculous.
 
I don't want to sound like I'm attacking anyone here, because I'm not. I just don't like the general tone of some people in here right now. Why should somebody be told not to purchase an excellent pair of headphones that they can use with a modest amp, just because they won't sound their best? Like I said, I haven't heard any stories of clipping damaging a headphone, and maybe I just haven't heard any yet. I'm sure it's possible. But if somebody can't afford to drop $280 on a pair of DT880s, $150 on an ODAC and $250 for an Asgard 2, should they not get the DT880s at all? I just don't know why there's so much animosity towards underpowering headphones. It's like definitively telling people to go big or go home.

 

[yokken]

Also, post #3000. I had to do it.