[i luvmusic 2]

I gotta say the Macbook Pro>TEAC UD-H01>BRAVO>DT880 is not a bad combo but most of my listening now  is from my Turntable>ART DJ Pre II(12V DC Power Supply).TT with Bravo it's a bad combo The Bravo sounds thin/harsh.  

 

[2chinzz]

  I gotta say the Macbook Pro>TEAC UD-H01>BRAVO>DT880 is not a bad combo but most of my listening now  is from my Turntable>ART DJ Pre II(12V DC Power Supply).TT with Bravo it's a bad combo The Bravo sounds thin/harsh.  

What capacitance setting do you use on the ART DJ Pre?

 

[mysticstryk]

  Usually tubes with high output impedance is to deliberately cause some distortion right?

 
No, that is not what tubes are for.  At least not what good tube designs are for.  Idk about the super cheap chinese stuff on ebay and amazon.

 

[SHAMuuu]

   
No, that is not what tubes are for.  At least not what good tube designs are for.  Idk about the super cheap chinese stuff on ebay and amazon.

What are they for then?
 
AFAIK, most articles say they are for "euphonic" THD distortion. The cheap chinese amps seem to be mostly hybrid with fairly low THD at higher impedence (e.g the cheapie Ocean is 0.016 @300ohm and 0.45 @33ohm. So when plugging in a low impedence you can hear it subtly, and its probably not desired. But with a dragonfly'esque usb and ocean with 250ohm, its dead silent, but sounds different than on a pure portable SS I have to compare with.

Anyway something like a Blue Hawaii SE has like <0.3% at its optimal efficient output (580V) or something. Is that different from distortion, albeit 'euphonic' in nature?
 
I'm not a techie, this is just how i processed the info

If I'm clueless on this, please correct me. I'm just learning the basics

 

 

[i luvmusic 2]

 

  I gotta say the Macbook Pro>TEAC UD-H01>BRAVO>DT880 is not a bad combo but most of my listening now  is from my Turntable>ART DJ Pre II(12V DC Power Supply).TT with Bravo it's a bad combo The Bravo sounds thin/harsh.  

What capacitance setting do you use on the ART DJ Pre?

i can't hear the difference between the 100pf/200pf so i leaved it to 200pf(factory default).

 

[bavinck]

What are they for then?
 
AFAIK, most articles say they are for "euphonic" THD distortion. The cheap chinese amps seem to be mostly hybrid with fairly low THD at higher impedence (e.g the cheapie Ocean is 0.016 @300ohm and 0.45 @33ohm. So when plugging in a low impedence you can hear it subtly, and its probably not desired. But with a dragonfly'esque usb and ocean with 250ohm, its dead silent, but sounds different than on a pure portable SS I have to compare with.

Anyway something like a Blue Hawaii SE has like <0.3% at its optimal efficient output (580V) or something. Is that different from distortion, albeit 'euphonic' in nature?
 
I'm not a techie, this is just how i processed the info

If I'm clueless on this, please correct me. I'm just learning the basics

 

 


All tubes add more or less distortion. Most of the time a well designed tube amp adds pleasing distortion, but it is distortion none the less.

 

[SHAMuuu]

 

 
What are they for then?
 
AFAIK, most articles say they are for "euphonic" THD distortion. The cheap chinese amps seem to be mostly hybrid with fairly low THD at higher impedence (e.g the cheapie Ocean is 0.016 @300ohm and 0.45 @33ohm. So when plugging in a low impedence you can hear it subtly, and its probably not desired. But with a dragonfly'esque usb and ocean with 250ohm, its dead silent, but sounds different than on a pure portable SS I have to compare with.

Anyway something like a Blue Hawaii SE has like <0.3% at its optimal efficient output (580V) or something. Is that different from distortion, albeit 'euphonic' in nature?
 
I'm not a techie, this is just how i processed the info

If I'm clueless on this, please correct me. I'm just learning the basics

 


All tubes add more or less distortion. Most of the time a well designed tube amp adds pleasing distortion, but it is distortion none the less.

Thats how I understood it, from the specs anyway. Many of these high end tube amps have high impedence and THD ranging 1-3% sometimes. Not to say some of the high end or hybrids can't get that number down. I always knew of THD as distortion, and in the car audio world, lower was better.
 
However, i have heard vintage speakers with tube amps and know of that tube sound. Where there is a pleasant fuzzyness to the sound so it feels like you swim in the music. But that is felt from head to toe. And its an addictive sound.
 

 
a song like that from those vintage speakers + tubes make you feel all warm and fuzzy , especially with some liquor in you, and it's definitely different than crystal clear accurate audio. I can see why people like it. Hell, i enjoyed it tremendously walking around wobbly, with the warm fuzzy music holding me up. A song like Black Magic Woman with that sound is heaven.
 
But i don't think you can get that with headphones (the head to toe feel) , no matter how well engineered it is. Same with bass.

 

[bavinck]

Well, most of the pleasing distortion is in the tube, not the amp.

 

[kman1211]

  Thats how I understood it, from the specs anyway. Many of these high end tube amps have high impedence and THD ranging 1-3% sometimes. Not to say some of the high end or hybrids can't get that number down. I always knew of THD as distortion, and in the car audio world, lower was better.
 
However, i have heard vintage speakers with tube amps and know of that tube sound. Where there is a pleasant fuzzyness to the sound so it feels like you swim in the music. But that is felt from head to toe. And its an addictive sound.
 

 
a song like that from those vintage speakers + tubes make you feel all warm and fuzzy , especially with some liquor in you, and it's definitely different than crystal clear accurate audio. I can see why people like it. Hell, i enjoyed it tremendously walking around wobbly, with the warm fuzzy music holding me up. A song like Black Magic Woman with that sound is heaven.
 
But i don't think you can get that with headphones (the head to toe feel) , no matter how well engineered it is. Same with bass.

Many tube amps do have higher distortion, it really depends on the amp. Though the tube amp I have is rated lower in distortion than many SS amps with a THD of only 0.013%(varies on the tube of course). I can tell the amp has less distortion than my SS amp yet each tube sounds distinctly different from each other. Also it also depends on the type of distortion, tubes tend to have even-ordered harmonic distortion which is much more pleasant and less fatiguing than odd-ordered harmonic distortion which is more commonly found in SS amps, which is why many cheap and poorly designed SS amps tend to sound rather unpleasant and fatiguing. Tubes tend to handle transients(one reason the Senn HE-1 uses tubes) better than SS amps and I often find good tube amps to sound cleaner and faster(able to handle complex passages better) than good SS amps. When both are at their very peak of design, they are roughly equal overall. There are great and terrible examples of both designs. All amps impart at least some distortion and of course lower is better but that doesn't mean the amp with the lower THD will sound better than one with a higher THD and there can be a myriad of reasons for it, the THD(and doesn't always tell you the full story in terms of distortion such as how much is even-ordered and how much is odd-ordered, even a small amount of odd-ordered can be unpleasant) is only one of many aspects of an amps sound quality. 

 

[CBonUK]

  Many tube amps do have higher distortion, it really depends on the amp. Though the tube amp I have is rated lower in distortion than many SS amps with a THD of only 0.013%(varies on the tube of course). I can tell the amp has less distortion than my SS amp yet each tube sounds distinctly different from each other. Also it also depends on the type of distortion, tubes tend to have even-ordered harmonic distortion which is much more pleasant and less fatiguing than odd-ordered harmonic distortion which is more commonly found in SS amps, which is why many cheap and poorly designed SS amps tend to sound rather unpleasant and fatiguing. Tubes tend to handle transients(one reason the Senn HE-1 uses tubes) better than SS amps and I often find good tube amps to sound cleaner and faster(able to handle complex passages better) than good SS amps. When both are at their very peak of design, they are roughly equal overall. There are great and terrible examples of both designs. All amps impart at least some distortion and of course lower is better but that doesn't mean the amp with the lower THD will sound better than one with a higher THD and there can be a myriad of reasons for it, the THD(and doesn't always tell you the full story in terms of distortion such as how much is even-ordered and how much is odd-ordered, even a small amount of odd-ordered can be unpleasant) is only one of many aspects of an amps sound quality. 

​I'm following this discussion with interest.  What tube amp do you have kman1211?

 

[TrollDragon]

  Many tube amps do have higher distortion, it really depends on the amp. Though the tube amp I have is rated lower in distortion than many SS amps with a THD of only 0.013%(varies on the tube of course). I can tell the amp has less distortion than my SS amp yet each tube sounds distinctly different from each other. Also it also depends on the type of distortion, tubes tend to have even-ordered harmonic distortion which is much more pleasant and less fatiguing than odd-ordered harmonic distortion which is more commonly found in SS amps, which is why many cheap and poorly designed SS amps tend to sound rather unpleasant and fatiguing. Tubes tend to handle transients(one reason the Senn HE-1 uses tubes) better than SS amps and I often find good tube amps to sound cleaner and faster(able to handle complex passages better) than good SS amps. When both are at their very peak of design, they are roughly equal overall. There are great and terrible examples of both designs. All amps impart at least some distortion and of course lower is better but that doesn't mean the amp with the lower THD will sound better than one with a higher THD and there can be a myriad of reasons for it, the THD(and doesn't always tell you the full story in terms of distortion such as how much is even-ordered and how much is odd-ordered, even a small amount of odd-ordered can be unpleasant) is only one of many aspects of an amps sound quality. 

The THD is so low on the Project Sunrise since it 95% solid state...

I get a kick out of amplifiers that have a single tube running in starved plate mode being called a "tube amp".

 

[kman1211]

 
The THD is so low on the Project Sunrise since it 95% solid state...

I get a kick out of amplifiers that have a single tube running in starved plate mode being called a "tube amp".

Then what about the Valhalla 2 which also has very low THD? Many of the Woo's are quite low too. Honestly some don't consider a tube amp real until you get into point-to-point tube amps.
 
The amp is a hybrid, but honestly most of the sound does come from the tube and it does have the tube sound. The Sunrise III is honestly just a stop-gap measure until I get a tube amp I really want, it just ended up being more to my liking than the Valhalla 2 which was rather disappointing. I was focusing on finding the headphones I wanted more than the system at the time I got the amp. Honestly one reason it's noise is low is because the power supply is not built into the unit. Having an external power supply helps a bit with noise and is an easy way to reduce it.

 

[SHAMuuu]

  Then what about the Valhalla 2 which also has very low THD? Many of the Woo's are quite low too. Honestly some don't consider a tube amp real until you get into point-to-point tube amps.
 
The amp is a hybrid, but honestly most of the sound does come from the tube. Honestly one reason it's distortion is low is because the power supply is not built into the unit. Having an external power supply helps quite a bit with noise and is an easy way to reduce it.

Often I've come across the THD numbers and its influence on the musicality, but moreso, the controversy on whether the euphonic distortions result in a more pleasant but less fidelity vs the euphonic distortion enhances fidelity. This is an area I'm not sure about. I have not had the experience with real tube amplifiers for headphones, so I am curious myself. But on speaker setups, the way i experienced sound from a good setup (tube amps/vintage speakers) the sound didn't come out like lasers (fast and accurate like some speakers at the hifi store) but rather like vibrating strings of sound. This was nice with psychedelic type music with electric guitars (so maybe one can argue it enhanced the experience of hearing the electric guitars) but some of this rubbed off on the voices as well,basically everything seemed to vibrate, but pleasantly. This different from a crappy distorting speaker. It felt like the music entered but there was some afterglow effect where the music was bouncing on skin like sand grains. The ears relaxed, and the body just absorbed all of it. It was all encompassing, euphoric. Whether that is at some cost of fidelity? It doesn't seem there is clear cut answer. Those OTL/ high end tube amps I'm sure they get to try and recreate this, and i wish i knew how close you can get. But I dont know if those will allow one to feel they are swimming in music with body buzzzing . Crystal clear accurate speakers are nice, but the feel is different. I guess kind of like the reference sound vs musical headphones battles here of what is better.
 
Will these OTL tube amps really so controlled in that they only add the euphonic distortions to certain instruments, while not overly coloring other instruments which don't need their timbers altered by the colorations? What about voices, they would be colored as well right?

Maybe someone can enlighten me

Though this stuff is interesting, it is also very perplexing, especially for those without acoustic engineering backgrounds

 

[kman1211]

 
Often I've come across the THD numbers and its influence on the musicality, but moreso, the controversy on whether the euphonic distortions result in a more pleasant but less fidelity vs the euphonic distortion enhances fidelity. This is an area I'm not sure about. I have not had the experience with real tube amplifiers for headphones, so I am curious myself. But on speaker setups, the way i experienced sound from a good setup (tube amps/vintage speakers) the sound didn't come out like lasers (fast and accurate like some speakers at the hifi store) but rather like vibrating strings of sound. This was nice with psychedelic type music with electric guitars (so maybe one can argue it enhanced the experience of hearing the electric guitars) but some of this rubbed off on the voices as well,basically everything seemed to vibrate, but pleasantly. This different from a crappy distorting speaker. It felt like the music entered but there was some afterglow effect where the music was bouncing on skin like sand grains. The ears relaxed, and the body just absorbed all of it. It was all encompassing, euphoric. Whether that is at some cost of fidelity? It doesn't seem there is clear cut answer. Those OTL/ high end tube amps I'm sure they get to try and recreate this, and i wish i knew how close you can get. But I dont know if those will allow one to feel they are swimming in music with body buzzzing . Crystal clear accurate speakers are nice, but the feel is different. I guess kind of like the reference sound vs musical headphones battles here of what is better.
 
Will these OTL tube amps really so controlled in that they only add the euphonic distortions to certain instruments, while not overly coloring other instruments which don't need their timbers altered by the colorations? What about voices, they would be colored as well right?

Maybe someone can enlighten me

Though this stuff is interesting, it is also very perplexing, especially for those without acoustic engineering backgrounds

It's not an area of expertise for me either. All I know having heard a lot of top-end headphone gear is it really depends on the amp and what the designer intended. Tubes can sound crystal clear/neutral or they can be tuned to emphasize the desired tube distortion/warmth that some crave. Just as a SS amps can be tuned to be neutral or try to replicate the tube warmth for example. I'm more familiar with headphone tube amps than speaker tube amps in listening experience. And the only high-end speaker systems I've heard were on tubes and I know what you mean by the enveloping and encompassing sound.
 
I personally learned not to care so much and care more about what the gear sounds like and what I feel from it, people can throw specs around all day, saying this has a better design than that, etc. and it still won't necessarily tell you if you like how something sounds or not. Some of my favorite amps have been some of the more technically impressive, I absolutely adored the sound of the Violectric V281 for example and I'm a tube guy quite liking the tube distortion personally.

 

[TrollDragon]

  Then what about the Valhalla 2 which also has very low THD? Many of the Woo's are quite low too. Honestly some don't consider a tube amp real until you get into point-to-point tube amps.
 
The amp is a hybrid, but honestly most of the sound does come from the tube and it does have the tube sound. The Sunrise III is honestly just a stop-gap measure until I get a tube amp I really want, it just ended up being more to my liking than the Valhalla 2 which was rather disappointing. Honestly one reason it's noise is low is because the power supply is not built into the unit. Having an external power supply helps a bit with noise and is an easy way to reduce it.

 
The low THD OTL amplifiers like Woo and Schiit have been fine tuned with their circuit design, running the tubes in an optimal configuration providing clean amplification. Opposed to throwing enough voltage at a plate to make it conduct and give a "tubey" sound.

I think their primary factor for using them is because of the open case. You can't put an AC mains power supply into something like that unless the power supply or amplifier is totally enclosed. The power brick ticks all the boxes as they are already UL certified and don't need to provide any high voltage.

What did you find disappointing about the Valhalla 2?