[bigshot]

When I do my testing (between equipment or to determine different masters) I keep it simple. Level matched and double-blind with a couple friends or colleagues. Not sufficient for a peer reviewed paper but good enough for me. It's amazing the amount of times the test exposes the perception tricks of the brain.

^ This. I think everyone should do basic controlled listening tests for themselves. Too often I see people claiming tests are too hard to do, so they will just believe what they believe; or if a person's tests don't validate their preconceived ideas, they start nit-picking the technical aspects of the testing until it becomes impossible to please them. Like you say, a basic controlled test will get you consistent enough results to know which direction to go.

Good phono preamp itself can create such a large difference that you may think that you got different set of speakers.

There are things that make MUCH more of a difference than the phono preamp. It isn't rocket science to apply an RIAA curve and boost to line level. The trick is in the mechanical aspects... the size and shape of the stylus (elliptical, conical, etc.), the depth and condition of the grooves, the quality of the vinyl used, moving magnet vs moving coil, and the alignment and tracking. I have tens of thousands of records- both LPs and 78s. The amp is the easiest part of the process. Turning groove modulation into signals is the hard part. Once it's a signal, amplifying it is easy.

 

[old tech]

Turntable setup can change the sound a lot. Good phono preamp itself can create such a large difference that you may think that you got different set of speakers. If you are aiming for very clean, hi-res sound don't even bother with turntables, but if that's not the case, good turntable can shift your music to a new extent especially with instrumental and vocal centric music(brazilian,afro,jazz, organic grooves, opera etc..)

I agree that there is a lot of sound quality variations between turntables but never noticed much, if any, differences between pre-amps if they are compatible with the cartridge being used. The main thing with moving coil cartridges is that there is no capacitance mis-match and for very low output MCs, that the pre-amp is not noisy - which can be an issue with simple tube designs. I don't know what combination of catridge/pre-amp you are using but it could be the loading which is creating the difference you are hearing.

As Bigshot pointed out, the role of the pre-amp and amp is to amplify the signal something that is trivially easy to do with fidelity over the past few decades. From my experience the main contributor to different sound quality is the cartridge, stylus and (to a lesser extent) the tonearm. The alignment and maintenance is also important (and often neglected by setting and forgetting). I always check all the turntable components and if necessary adjust the alignment before doing needle-drops.

If for whatever reason some of your records have a preferred vocal centric sound, a proper needle drop from your turntable/pre-amp should result in an identical sound to your turntable/pre-amp.

 

[bigshot]

I think that turntable amps are talked about so much because they are a big upsell item. Once you've convinced them to spend a wad on a turntable and a cart, the next thing is to get them to drop hundreds more on an amp. When I was in high school, I worked in a clothing store. When a man bought a suit, you'd suggest a shirt to go with it... then a tie... new shoes... then of course matching socks... and how are you fixed for underwear, sir? Multiple sales. That is where commissioned salespeople make money.

 

[Davesrose]

I'm a special case that my townhouse is near a radio tower. So I have found that different amp designs either pick up the radio station or introduce hum. My plate amp with my subwoofer will have a loud hum with a straight line: I found I was able to eliminate it with an isolator from Blue Jeans. When I first setup a surround receiver in the townhouse, it would pick up the radio station in the speakers (until I got a surge protector that had RF filter). Previously I had gotten a TT that didn't have built in preamp. Funny thing was that I first got a Parasound TT amp for it...and it had loud static. The retailer didn't ask for it back, they just sent another TT amp I selected from NAD. When I moved to the townhouse, the NAD would pick up some of the radio station: which was audible during quieter segments. Most recently I upgraded my receiver to a 11 channel Atmos receiver. It is quite a bit more expensive than my previous receiver. My previous receiver didn't have a phono input: this one does...it probably isn't that expensive a component in it. However, it is really grounded well (and I guess part of the RF filter). I can give the NAD TT amp away: the receiver's phono input is much better as the sound is cleaner (no noise or audible radio station during any passage of a record). I assume a TT preamp might be more sensitive to interference because it does require more amplification.

 

[hakunamakaka]

I agree that there is a lot of sound quality variations between turntables but never noticed much, if any, differences between pre-amps if they are compatible with the cartridge being used. The main thing with moving coil cartridges is that there is no capacitance mis-match and for very low output MCs, that the pre-amp is not noisy - which can be an issue with simple tube designs. I don't know what combination of catridge/pre-amp you are using but it could be the loading which is creating the difference you are hearing.

As Bigshot pointed out, the role of the pre-amp and amp is to amplify the signal something that is trivially easy to do with fidelity over the past few decades. From my experience the main contributor to different sound quality is the cartridge, stylus and (to a lesser extent) the tonearm. The alignment and maintenance is also important (and often neglected by setting and forgetting). I always check all the turntable components and if necessary adjust the alignment before doing needle-drops.

If for whatever reason some of your records have a preferred vocal centric sound, a proper needle drop from your turntable/pre-amp should result in an identical sound to your turntable/pre-amp.

I’m the kind of guy who can’t hear nuance change in music, stopped messing with cables, even with my portable rig I can’t notice a difference between wired and bluetooth dac/amp(yes I have high end IEM) I know lots of number cultists and high fidelity guys hate tubes, but there is something special for me in the way they reproduce sound. With tube preamp difference was easy to notice and sounded way more to my taste, on the other side SS preamp gave sound closer to my digital setup. TT is old thorens and only retro MM ortofon cartridge was replaced for 60$.

I heard few TT with intergrated phono-preamp in the shop and they sounded boring. I don’t see myself buying a new turntable, either they are insanely expensive or they look and sound cheap

 

[bigshot]

The difference between tube amps and solid state can be audible. But a DSP that adds distortion like a tube amp could make a solid state amp sound just as distorted.

 

[magicscreen]

The difference between tube amps and solid state can be audible. But a DSP that adds distortion like a tube amp could make a solid state amp sound just as distorted.

Tube amp != distortion.

 

[reginalb]

Tube amp != distortion.

That's exactly what it does. What would you call it?

 

[KeithPhantom]

That's exactly what it does. What would you call it?

You can make good measuring tube amps of you put the effort in. SS ones also distort.

 

[hakunamakaka]

Distortions sounds a bit negative like the sound gets awful... for me coloring sound fits better description. Tube amps keeps harmonics even when overdriven, that’s one of the reasons why guitar players mainly stick with tubes.

 

[KeithPhantom]

Distortions sounds a bit negative like the sound gets awful... for me coloring sound fits better description. Tube amps keeps harmonics even when overdriven, that’s one of the reasons why guitar players mainly stick with tubes.

Not always harmonics are even, but that's preference

 

[danadam]

Distortions sounds a bit negative like the sound gets awful... for me coloring sound fits better description. Tube amps keeps harmonics even when overdriven, that’s one of the reasons why guitar players mainly stick with tubes.

AFAICT guitar players don't have a problem with word "distortion", they use it all the time and not in the meaning "awful".

 

[dazzerfong]

Distortions sounds a bit negative like the sound gets awful... for me coloring sound fits better description. Tube amps keeps harmonics even when overdriven, that’s one of the reasons why guitar players mainly stick with tubes.

Colouring = distortion. Distortion is anything that deviates from the 'truth'. Can be positive or negative: in itself doesn't mean much.

 

[bigshot]

Distortions sounds a bit negative like the sound gets awful...

That's just semantics. Distortion means any deviation from the original signal. Fidelity means lack of deviation. Coloration usually refers to an imbalance of frequency response. You can like tubes. That is fine. But the reason tubes sound like tubes is because they add distortion to the signal.

 

[KeithPhantom]

That's just semantics. Distortion means any deviation from the original signal. Fidelity means lack of deviation. Coloration usually refers to an imbalance of frequency response. You can like tubes. That is fine. But the reason tubes sound like tubes is because they add distortion to the signal.

The bad ones change the sound, the good ones are also transparent.