Testing audiophile claims and myths
May 29, 2015 at 2:26 AM Post #6,497 of 14,838

lamode

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Interesting please provide references! A little Calculus is OK. Measurements of the audibility of rise time with double blind testing is best. I'm curious as I've read little on the subject and you clearly have the info! Simple dX/dT where X is rise ant T is time?

 
It's not rocket science. The fastest rise time will be required at the highest frequency at maximum amplitude. Redbook has no problem with that.
 
May 29, 2015 at 2:46 AM Post #6,498 of 14,838

lamode

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  To test this theory, Japanese went to the most extreme possible of extremes - mercury cables. ZERO crystals (as mercury is liquid - except at terminations ), sealed from the atmosphere, whatever oxygen still entering the equation, would not be enough to "rot" anything but the surface of the mercury. These cables allegedly sounded superb - out of this world superb.

 
Complete nonsense, as usual. Copper (I) oxide on the surface (which does not form easily) has no effect on the cable as an audio conductor. Same goes for copper (II) oxide.
 
And no, a mercury cable doesn't sound any more "superb" than a $5 copper cable.
 
The only thing which is "out of this world" is your dedication to trolling.
 
May 29, 2015 at 2:54 AM Post #6,499 of 14,838

analogsurviver

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Complete nonsense, as usual. Copper (I) oxide on the surface (which does not form easily) has no effect on the cable as an audio conductor. Same goes for copper (II) oxide.
 
And no, a mercury cable doesn't sound any more "superb" than a $5 copper cable.
 
The only thing which is "out of this world" is your dedication to trolling.

Now please go and get yourself two Audio Technica phono MM cartridges - one with PC/OCC wire and one older, regular copper wire version. Use the same stylus with both. There are MANY possible cartridges to choose from - use whatever you find most easily obtainable.
 
And then get back to me if you can not hear a difference ... 
 
May 29, 2015 at 3:07 AM Post #6,500 of 14,838

lamode

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  Now please go and get yourself two Audio Technica phono MM cartridges - one with PC/OCC wire and one older, regular copper wire version. Use the same stylus with both. There are MANY possible cartridges to choose from - use whatever you find most easily obtainable.
 
And then get back to me if you can not hear a difference ... 

 
I headed straight to my bat cave and played my favourite 25kHz test tone LP meant to be played back at 33 rpm, at 78 rpm. You do the math!!!
I did this with both the Chiroptera Diamond+ cartridge without OFC, and of course the same cartridge retrofitted with pure OFC in a secret laboratory in Japan (where they joke all day long about the nincompoops working at CERN)
 
43 bats took part in the test. (The others were sleeping). 37 of them voted a clear preference for the OFC version!!! A clear win!!!
 
May 29, 2015 at 3:15 AM Post #6,501 of 14,838

Steve Eddy

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I did answer that already - Copper Oxide was the first form of a semiconductor. And any oxygen means there will, eventually, be oxydation of the crystal copper, yielding what should be conductor to become an unending series of diodes connected in random directions.


Nope. Sorry my friend but you don't know what you're talking about. Just more audiophile mythology based on ignorance.

First, Cu/CuO/Cu, which is the scenario you're describing here, does not make a diode. For that you need Cu/CuO and then something OTHER than Cu to make a diode. Look up the construction of a real copper oxide diode. I believe lead was pretty commonly used.

Second, you clearly don't even understand how a diode works. I'll spare you the solid state physics behind it and just leave it this.

Even if the scenario you give above did create a bunch of copper oxide diodes, what you have to understand about semiconductor diodes, even before they will begin to conduct current in the direction they're supposed to conduct current (in other words the opposite of the direction that it isn't supposed to conduct current and be "off"), the voltage across the diode must equal or exceed its forward conducting voltage. In the case of copper oxide, this is about 0.3 volts. In the case of silicon, about 0.7 volts.

In the microscopically small span of these diodes you're talking about, there would never be a voltage across that micro diode that equaled or exceeded 0.3 volts. So there would never be any current flowing through them in either direction, let alone current flowing in one direction and being blocked in the other, which is what happens when a real diode is functioning.

Third, ETP copper, while an "oxygenated" copper, only uses very small (on the order of 0.04%), very precisely controlled amounts of oxygen. ETP starts out with pretty pure copper to begin with. At least 99.95%. The purpose of the oxygen is to scavenge the remaining impurities and remove them from solution. The result is a copper with a higher conductivity. In other words, a copper with the same percentage of impurities, has a lower conductivity than the same copper employing oxygen scavenging. And with the oxygen bound to the impurities, it can't react with the copper to form the copper oxide you're so deathly afraid of.


To test this theory, Japanese went to the most extreme possible of extremes - mercury cables. ZERO crystals (as mercury is liquid - except at terminations ), sealed from the atmosphere, whatever oxygen still entering the equation, would not be enough to "rot" anything but the surface of the mercury. These cables allegedly sounded superb - out of this world superb.


That's the problem when people are ignorant of the facts, fantasize about "problems" that don't exist, and then come up with a "cure" for those non-existent problems. But because they're convinced that the "cure" must result in a cable that's "better," then those subjective biases will tend to "confirm" that it sounds better.

To "test this theory" would have required nothing more than a simple distortion test. Diodes are nonlinear. So any diodic action going on in the cable will produce harmonic and intermodulation distortion.

Several years ago I provided a number of cables to Bruno Putzeys, currently with Hypex but at the time was with Philips.

He found no distortion down to about -145 dB, which was the noise limit of the measurements. And one of the cables I sent him was a cheap cable I'd bought at Radio Shack that was about 10 years old. And I'd bet if I pulled out some of the 60+ year old AC wiring from my walls, cleaned off the ends and soldered some connectors to it, you would get the same result. The "theory" is based on a complete lack of understanding.

Practical realization was oxygen free copper with as long crystals as possible (on the order of half a metre or so...) - all intended to approximate the performance of the impractical (not to mention poisenous...) holy grail of cables - the mercury cable.


Pure nonsense.

The only "problem" with ETP copper is when you heat it in a reducing atmosphere, such as hydrogen as you might find in a hydrogen annealing furnace, like my transformer guy uses to anneal his transformer laminations. The hydrogen can penetrate the copper and react with the oxygen which can embrittle the copper and cause it to fail.

That's what oxygen free copper is for. But it was latched onto by a bunch of audiophiles many years ago as a "superior" copper and has been a meaningless buzzword ever since. At least until they latched onto OCC.

If you want to learn about materials properties, the absolute LAST place you should go to get it is a bunch of neurotic audiophiles and "high end" audio manufacturers. Get a REAL materials properties text. I recommend Hummel's Electronic Properties of Materials as a good place to start. Otherwise, all you're doing is embarrassing yourself by perpetuating all this mythological nonsense.

se
 
May 29, 2015 at 3:18 AM Post #6,502 of 14,838

analogsurviver

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I headed straight to my bat cave and played my favourite 25kHz test tone LP meant to be played back at 33 rpm, at 78 rpm. You do the math!!!
I did this with both the Chiroptera Diamond+ cartridge without OFC, and of course the same cartridge retrofitted with pure OFC in a secret laboratory in Japan (where they joke all day long about the nincompoops working at CERN)
 
43 bats took part in the test. (The others were sleeping). 37 of them voted a clear preference for the OFC version!!! A clear win!!!

Damn - you're fast ! Procuring so rare a cartridge on so short notice, in no less than two versions, aligning both accurately in two identical interchangeable arm wands to facilitate ABX - 
and still have time to write up the stats... Everything in say 10 minutes. If you CAN atest to the fact you need no more nutrition than one medium sized grain of rice per day, you're HIRED !
 
You are becoming bat keeper. That is good - there is still hope for you !!!
 
May 29, 2015 at 3:21 AM Post #6,503 of 14,838

Steve Eddy

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The only thing which is "out of this world" is your dedication to trolling.


He may be completely misguided, but his beliefs are sincere. I had a rather lengthy telephone conversation with him a while back and I can assure you he is not a troll. So could you please not call him one?

Thanks.

se
 
May 29, 2015 at 3:43 AM Post #6,504 of 14,838

lamode

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He may be completely misguided, but his beliefs are sincere. I had a rather lengthy telephone conversation with him a while back and I can assure you he is not a troll. So could you please not call him one?

 
I believe that you believe that he believes, but believe me, I will believe what I believe! :)
 
May 29, 2015 at 3:56 AM Post #6,506 of 14,838

Joe Bloggs

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Ironically, it seems the temptation is greater for one of a scientific mindset to resort to name-calling--because it's so much easier and quicker for someone to pull another ill-formed argument, anecdote, etc. out of his hat than for the scientific representative to rebut it with properly backed arguments. To this I say, rebut the arguments you have time to rebut when you have time, leave the rest of the torrent of "arguments" alone, and leave it to the audience to see for themselves who has the better points. Those readers who cannot tell the wheat from the chaff are not those you can hope to win over to your side anyway. :xf_eek:

Do not in any case attempt to match the other guy's post rate--you'll run out of arguments in no time, whereas their "arguments" are inexhaustible.
 
May 29, 2015 at 4:11 AM Post #6,507 of 14,838

Dobrescu George

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Is this another one of your personal theories? Because to be honest I don't think one of your personal theories so far has been correct.

sorry, until now no theories I posted are mine
biggrin.gif

 
Most are just read. My own theories are not open, and I am testing them very deep. In fact, right now I am discussing these facts just because I wanted to make sure if it is worth my time for even trying to test such ideeas. Most of what I truly belive are what I post on my project's page.  
 
I think that soundstage is everywhere on the frequency charts, spatial sounds are not in a certain frequency, in my view. I do belive that even bass can be more enveloping around the user or more directional, coming from a certain area. 
 
May 29, 2015 at 5:47 AM Post #6,508 of 14,838

James-uk

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Only a handful of people predicted the CD’s downfall way back in 1982. German computer engineer Dieter Seitzer, the forefather of the MP3, immediately considered the CD “a maximalist repository of irrelevant information, most of which was ignored by the human ear,”

Interesting read this , thought I would share it with you guys.
http://www.theguardian.com/music/2015/may/28/how-the-compact-disc-lost-its-shine?CMP=fb_gu
 
May 29, 2015 at 5:58 AM Post #6,509 of 14,838

Singleton

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Do you agree with Ethan Winer's opinion in these two video's below?
 
 
 

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