[AudioBear]

I  just find them generally annoying.  But yes, they do influence the innocent.  I just went through a conversation like that where the newcomer asked about interconnects and you know what happened.  I and another poster recommended Monoprice and Blue Jeans. A couple of snooty cable recommendations were made.  Monoprice was characterized as junk.  When respondents said that Monoprice isn't junk, then we heard that they are copying and infringing on patents.  On and on.  The OP decided to buy Mogami.  I have nothing against Mogami, they make good stuff and it's not outrageously priced but it's cleat the OP was confused and retreated to the relative security of the more expensive Mogami product. I suspect a lot of decent quality labels come out of the same Chinese factory.  Many sure look alike but prices vary  great deal.
 
There are lots of suppliers of perfectly good cables as for example Emotiva (for @KeithEmo) and other brands don't overcharge or sell boutique cables, but one has to wonder how many people have paid for exotic cables they don't need just because of what they read in the forums and in fear-based marketing pieces. 
 
I  have to cut a break for one kind of subjectivist that I find to be very reasonable.  They usually are not offended by objectivists.  The call their conclusions and preferences opinions and are very clear that others may prefer something else.  Their basic argument is go listen to stuff and buy the one you like after taking it home and trying it in your system.  They don't measure of test.  They listen at different times to different sources when they are in different moods and if they like something they buy it.  Some admit to owning several different cans or dacs or amps and playing the one they are in the mood for. Who can argue with that? For them it's not religion and they are very tolerant of other people's preferences.

 

[Exacoustatowner]

  Here's another example of an overactive audiophile imagination at work. I fail to understand how people actually believe they are hearing this. I don't think for the most part that they are purposefully imagining this.Or at least I hope not. But challenge this and they attack like a pack of dogs. I feel sorry for the innocent newbie that is easily influenced due to naivety and mob based suggestion.
http://www.head-fi.org/t/711824/hifiman-he-560-impressions-discussion-thread/13065#post_11609354

I've the HE-560's. I wanted an extension so I went to Radio Shack. The inexpensive cable etched my bass slam and undermined my grunt!  If only it had gold alloy! Actually the copper Radio Shack cable does a fine job.
 
Where I hear the difference is with tube rolling (this from a confirmed SS fan)  I'll give you a specific example. Mahler Symphony 8, MTT San Francisco Symphony, SACD or CD. #5. "Gloria Patri Domino"- last 10 seconds or so and on and off during the entire passage. When the three soprano's, two mezzo Soprano's, strings, massive choir, brass, and pipe organ crescendo all at once. It can all blend into a painful screeching sound. With a few specific pairs of tubes- the voices and instruments tend to "separate" somewhat and the painful screech diminishes.The high organ note, brass, voices and strings can be distinguished as harmonizing-but separate sounds. 
 
 Is this improved phase response due to closely matched triodes? Not a clue-but it is audible. I'm an Analytical Scientist of some 30 years experience-so I am well familiar with using measurements. My question to the more knowledgeable- is WHAT measurement will delineate this effect. My SS headphone AMP (OppoBDP-105D measures absurdly low THD) and it does not separate the instruments and voices in this passage as well as the Lyr with specific tubes. All triode 6992, 7308, 6DJ8 types that SHOULD all be the same.
In my work when measurements are the same- yet the products are NOT equally efficacious in their intended use- I consider that there must be a physical property I was NOT measuring.
I've enough Physics to be familiar with square waves, ringing, harmonic distortion, frequency response, etc.
The triodes are active circuits-not wires. I am also familiar with expectation bias-and in the case of the hybrid tube amp my expectation was negative. I ordered an SS Amp and Amazon sent me the Lyr instead.I tried-I Liked!
 
I realize this audience primarily focuses on chortling at absurdist claims. So I can contribute some to that later with my favorite= "Brilliant Pebbles!"

 

[StanD]

Not enough of the tolerant well meaning types, there are far too many mean spirited ones.

 

[StanD]

@Exacoustatowner You may find that some open loop (not using negative feedback) tube designs will color the sound by tube rolling and biasing. I prefer clean, hence a good SS product. Of course comparable clean tube products exist, however, they can get somewhat pricey.

 

[Steve Eddy]

I  have to cut a break for one kind of subjectivist that I find to be very reasonable.  They usually are not offended by objectivists.  The call their conclusions and preferences opinions and are very clear that others may prefer something else.  Their basic argument is go listen to stuff and buy the one you like after taking it home and trying it in your system.  They don't measure of test.  They listen at different times to different sources when they are in different moods and if they like something they buy it.  Some admit to owning several different cans or dacs or amps and playing the one they are in the mood for. Who can argue with that? For them it's not religion and they are very tolerant of other people's preferences.

Yes. As I've said before, problems only arise when people try and pass off their subjective experience as something more than that. And when they do, I don't consider them a subjectivist of any kind. What you describe is not "one kind of subjectivist." They're a subjectivist. Period. And as much as the term "subjectivist" gets bandied about, subjectivists are actually pretty rare.

se

 

[Exacoustatowner]

  I  just find them generally annoying.  But yes, they do influence the innocent.  I just went through a conversation like that where the newcomer asked about interconnects and you know what happened.  I and another poster recommended Monoprice and Blue Jeans. A couple of snooty cable recommendations were made.  Monoprice was characterized as junk.  When respondents said that Monoprice isn't junk, then we heard that they are copying and infringing on patents.  On and on.  The OP decided to buy Mogami.  I have nothing against Mogami, they make good stuff and it's not outrageously priced but it's cleat the OP was confused and retreated to the relative security of the more expensive Mogami product. I suspect a lot of decent quality labels come out of the same Chinese factory.  Many sure look alike but prices vary  great deal.
 
There are lots of suppliers of perfectly good cables as for example Emotiva (for @KeithEmo) and other brands don't overcharge or sell boutique cables, but one has to wonder how many people have paid for exotic cables they don't need just because of what they read in the forums and in fear-based marketing pieces. 
 
I  have to cut a break for one kind of subjectivist that I find to be very reasonable.  They usually are not offended by objectivists.  The call their conclusions and preferences opinions and are very clear that others may prefer something else.  Their basic argument is go listen to stuff and buy the one you like after taking it home and trying it in your system.  They don't measure of test.  They listen at different times to different sources when they are in different moods and if they like something they buy it.  Some admit to owning several different cans or dacs or amps and playing the one they are in the mood for. Who can argue with that? For them it's not religion and they are very tolerant of other people's preferences.

Cables are fairly simple. I look for good quality builds-and Blue Jeans fit the bill. I hate seeing people snookered into buying boutique cables costing hundreds of dollars based on hype.  Someone said that their Monoprice had a high failure rate? I asked for details and pointed out that I had been using freebie low quality RCA cables for many years and had ZERO failures. They never responded.
I allign all my cables with magnetic north and have an elaborate system to move them as the magnetic pole shifts. It prevents the electrons from being influenced by paranormal phenomenon. Poltergeists can wreak havoc on Bass Grunt!

 

[StanD]

  Cables are fairly simple. I look for good quality builds-and Blue Jeans fit the bill. I hate seeing people snookered into buying boutique cables costing hundreds of dollars based on hype.  Someone said that their Monoprice had a high failure rate? I asked for details and pointed out that I had been using freebie low quality RCA cables for many years and had ZERO failures. They never responded.
I allign all my cables with magnetic north and have an elaborate system to move them as the magnetic pole shifts. It prevents the electrons from being influenced by paranormal phenomenon. Poltergeists can wreak havoc on Bass Grunt!

You can treat your cables to improve their SQ by leaving them ovenight in a pyramid. If you also leave some razor blades in there, they will be sharpened by morning.

 

[Exacoustatowner]

Yes. As I've said before, problems only arise when people try and pass off their subjective experience as something more than that. And when they do, I don't consider them a subjectivist of any kind. What you describe is not "one kind of subjectivist." They're a subjectivist. Period. And as much as the term "subjectivist" gets bandied about, subjectivists are actually pretty rare.

se

 I am aware through education and experience how much emotion and bias can affect our experiences. After all hearing is partly in the ear and partly in the brain. Audio memory is very short. I tend to use the same few seconds of a very familiar piece and compare over and over again. On different days-before making a conclusion. Unless the differences are major-such as my example with Mahler. Even then I did different day comparisons.The easiest is between my SS and Hybrid. I also adjusted the volumes to match. Nice to have a decibel meter. Then it comes down to "can I hear the French horns as separate from instrument X?"  In the case of Mahler I have the benefit of hearing the same Symphony, and conductor in the same place as my recording. I also took photos of the instrument placement which MTT arranged the same in his recording session as in the live performance. 
With my best tubes I hear a remarkable illusion of correct placement. I can verify it from the many photos I took-so as not to allow malleable memory to give me the response I expect-and or desire. 
One thing-this is all entertainment for me-so a difference of opinion is fine. I do apply my science background as much as possible-hence testing on different days.
I do understand Stan's desire to rely on measurements-I just don't think we are measuring enough. What for instance, makes a live performance different from the best recording-particularly if it is a binaural recording that more closely matches our experience? If distortion and frequency response are NOT factors-what is?

 

[Exacoustatowner]

  You can treat your cables to improve their SQ by leaving them ovenight in a pyramid. If you also leave some razor blades in there, they will be sharpened by morning.

Now that's why I ask the experts! I can get more use out of my pyramid hat! Do I take the aluminum foil out first?
And I see some may have already been exposed to the wonderment of Brilliant Pebbles! http://www.head-fi.org/t/193748/brilliant-pebbles-first-impressions
Someone actually FELL for it-and was astounded they made no difference.

 

[StanD]

@Exacoustatowner The thing about placement might be incorrect in the recording and erroneously resolved by the use of a tube amp. Many hybrod amps have a tube stage designed to have increased THD by having no negative feedback and biasing, by rolling tubes perhaps this case worked for you. Just a theory. On your closing statement, can you suggest a property that gave this effect for you?

 

[Steve Eddy]

One thing-this is all entertainment for me-so a difference of opinion is fine. I do apply my science background as much as possible-hence testing on different days.
I do understand Stan's desire to rely on measurements-I just don't think we are measuring enough. What for instance, makes a live performance different from the best recording-particularly if it is a binaural recording that more closely matches our experience? If distortion and frequency response are NOT factors-what is?

You're assuming ideal transducers. While we have been able to produce audibly transparent electronics for some time, transducers aren't there yet.

se

 

[headdict]

  You can treat your cables to improve their SQ by leaving them ovenight in a pyramid. If you also leave some razor blades in there, they will be sharpened by morning.

You should know that pyramids can cause severe upper mids itch. You can counter the effect by wrapping the cables in oil-soaked CD mats, but the mids can get swirly if you overdo the oil part. And beware of the pharaoh or you may be in for a mid bass plunge curse. In that event all the razor blades will be gone too.

 

[Exacoustatowner]

@Exacoustatowner
 The thing about placement might be incorrect in the recording and erroneously resolved by the use of a tube amp. Many hybrod amps have a tube stage designed to have increased THD by having no negative feedback and biasing, by rolling tubes perhaps this case worked for you. Just a theory. On your closing statement, can you suggest a property that gave this effect for you?

All good but I have photos of the placement from my seat. Most conductors have a "seating chart" for the various sections. For this one it's bass section left rear, bells, etc center/ back. Tympani back-center right, first violin front center left, etc. This corresponds to my previous and post experience of the recording. I commented on this to my companion.

 

[castleofargh]

what I learned from headfi this week:
 anywhere outside of sound science it is forbidden to talk about blind testing or pretty much any kind of scientific method. so that's removing a good 99% of intelligent ways to demonstrate a point about audibility in practice. brilliant for an audio forum!
want to explain the scientific theory behind a claim? well be super short and be dumb, else people will tell you to go back to sound science and leave them alone. then most likely your post will vanish.
 
there is one thing we're free to do, and really only one, it's empty claims. every hours is happy hour for empty claims. no TOS against saying BS all day long.
so how can we show why we have that opinion and believe it true? well obviously you can't explain the science, and you can't suggest any rational testing method as it's a TOS abuse. so instead, you just have to be the most popular, use demagogy, abuse straw man arguments and fallacies. because that's how we role and we pretty much never get moderated for that.
 
 
so whatever attempt to substantiate a claim, good luck with that.
I suggest to say "I know what I heard" at all times, and when the guy get annoyed and starts explaining why you're wrong, just ask why he hates you or whatever device you were arguing about, and report him for being off topic and outside sound science. oh and of course, start a science vs anti science fight, or an objectivist vs subjectivist and pretend that your point of view is the subjective one. that way even if you're full of crap, many people will defend you because they feel like they belong.
 
 
 
 
 
 
now practical exercise:
 
go say that abx is BS(no reason!!!!!!!!) anywhere in headfi. who's going to stop you? nobody.
now I answer to you why I believe ABX is a nice method and explain how it has massively better accuracy than sighted test, now I'm kicked in the butt by the TOS and anybody can report me and get my post removed.
 
go say that the gold cable is warmer. all clear!
now I answer to you with electricity rules and methods to test if it's really audible. booom headshot!
 
you get the idea. enjoy a website where truth has no factual value in every day conversations, and where it's pretty much impossible to explain something or substantiate a point because of the rules.
and how do I know all that? well I see it with my own eyes and we all have different eyes, so don't tell me what I'm subjectively reading!

 
 
ps: I take all that knowledge from getting inspired by my respected BS master, but the TOS wouldn't allow me to give his name. I guess that would be a personal attack. too bad because again it's true.

 

[Exacoustatowner]

All good but I have photos of the placement from my seat. Most conductors have a "seating chart" for the various sections. For this one it's bass section left rear, bells, etc center/ back. Tympani back-center right, first violin front center left, etc. This corresponds to my previous and post experience of the recording. I commented on this to my companion.

RE "Property" only that phase accuracy can affect placement. What is it in hearing that gives us location cues? Probably a good starting point