Testing audiophile claims and myths
Nov 29, 2024 at 4:59 PM Post #18,436 of 18,474
I don't have children nor enough talent to create art great enough for anyone to ever appreciate. I can't become "immortal." People probably say I need to believe in myself, but I have done that in the past. I believed in myself a lot when I was younger (and naive), but then life humbled me and showed me my place as a loser who can become good at things with a lot of effort, but never good enough. It happened even here on this discussion board! I can only try and make the best of the life of struggles I have as a mortal being and then die away as if I never lived. My carbon foot print is perhaps the only thing I leave behind for the next generations. There is at least that...
It seems you have accepted this position but have not come to terms with it. Broadening your philosophical horizon may help you. IMO there really is no need for a struggle to become 'immortal' and some philosophies consider immortality as something that either inherently exists in everyone or does not exist at all and hence it cannot be 'earned'.

Learn, and teach. No matter how small your contribution and you are not a loser.
 
Nov 29, 2024 at 5:42 PM Post #18,437 of 18,474
I don't have children nor enough talent to create art great enough for anyone to ever appreciate. I can't become "immortal." People probably say I need to believe in myself, but I have done that in the past. I believed in myself a lot when I was younger (and naive), but then life humbled me and showed me my place as a loser who can become good at things with a lot of effort, but never good enough. It happened even here on this discussion board! I can only try and make the best of the life of struggles I have as a mortal being and then die away as if I never lived. My carbon foot print is perhaps the only thing I leave behind for the next generations. There is at least that...
Very much the same here… I do have children though.
 
Nov 29, 2024 at 6:22 PM Post #18,438 of 18,474
It seems you have accepted this position but have not come to terms with it. Broadening your philosophical horizon may help you. IMO there really is no need for a struggle to become 'immortal' and some philosophies consider immortality as something that either inherently exists in everyone or does not exist at all and hence it cannot be 'earned'.

Learn, and teach. No matter how small your contribution and you are not a loser.
I try to learn new things every day, but I am a slow learner. I am struggling to learn Japanese hiragana and katakana for example. They those can be learned in 2 days and for me even 2 years wasn't enough. I tried to understand music theory for decades before I really started to understand it 6 years ago at age 47. I think I know music theory pretty well now, but it took so long! I have noticed I learn things somewhat efficiently if they are presented to me in the exactly correct format (which is logical connections between things) for my system thinker brain and since only a small fraction of people are system thinkers, things are rarely presented in this format. So, my mind struggles doing the format change. For example learning hiragana, what logic is there behind the fact that す= "SU"? There isn't much logic. People simply need to memorise it and my brain sucks at memorising stuff without logic unless the stuff is considered "important" by my brain and I can't tell it what is. Even if knowing す= "SU" is very important for learning Japanese, my brain thinks it is garbage knowledge because of the lack of logical connections behind it.

I teach people if I can, but I am also aware of my limitations as my life humbles me. There are things I know about a lot and can teach about, but I am also aware there are people who know even more and are better teachers. Isn't it only wise to let the better teachers teach?
 
Nov 30, 2024 at 3:51 AM Post #18,439 of 18,474
No.
The fact that there are better teachers, doesn't make You a bad one.
You just have to relax and do not take life so seriously.
We all are going to die one day, so just make sure that there will be fun in your life.
We all are made in some way, we all have limitations, things we can do and things we can't.
Fu... it. Do what You like and have fun.
 
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Nov 30, 2024 at 4:15 AM Post #18,440 of 18,474
Life is getting worse and worse all the time because the World is changing into the wrong direction (for me at least). I need all the good things there are still left including art.

I don't mean art is the only thing that can give life meaning, but it is one of those important ones that do, at least for me.

Not all art is meaningful to me. In fact, only a small fraction of all art means something to me. For example Mona Lisa painting is a technically brilliant masterpiece, but nevertheless a boring work of art for me. Give me Mark Rothko's paintings, Alvar Aalto's architecture and Sir Edward Elgar's music instead. Those kind of art gives meaning to my life. Art is VERY personal. Find the art that means something to you. That's what my "condescending" post was about.
Art like most things in life are a matter of personal preferences and choices
 
Nov 30, 2024 at 4:54 AM Post #18,441 of 18,474
As usual, gregorio is not only horribly insulting, but totally wrong.
And as usual you are chiming in with BS! Incomplete/misrepresented quotes, hypocritically accusing me of strawman and other fallacies when that’s exactly what you’re doing, in addition to just lying. Every single time you do this, make a fool of yourself and I tell you you never learn and in response, you never learn and make a fool out of yourself yet again. Not that your BS really needs a response, but you seemed to have missed obvious facts (for a change, lol). Try reading my post again but this time don’t switch your brain off when you get to the part about imperfect perception testing and the alternatives!
Every response I’ve ever received has been insulting, so I’ve stopped worrying about it.
How is it surprising that you receive blunt or even insulting responses to your posts when every single of your posts is insulting to start with? You think that posting falsehoods asserted as fact in a science discussion forum is polite? And then you thank someone for providing (false) support?
Strange thread. Some think joy needs a blind test.
Even stranger response, who thinks joy can be or is ever tested with a blind test?

G
 
Nov 30, 2024 at 5:03 AM Post #18,442 of 18,474
And in the end,
The love you take
Is equal to the love you make.

It isn’t what you do for yourself that matters in the long run. It’s what you leave behind for others.
 
Nov 30, 2024 at 5:39 AM Post #18,443 of 18,474
And in the end,
The love you take
Is equal to the love you make.

It isn’t what you do for yourself that matters in the long run. It’s what you leave behind for others.

Like I said, carbon foot print is what I am leaving behind for others... ...and if I try to think about it as positively as I can, my thousands of posts on various online discussion boards (perhaps 50.000 by now)* about various topics of the last two decades may have had a tiny influence on some of the people who have been reading. That said, for a Finn my carbon foot print should be relative small because of my lifestyle. Doesn't make it ideal, of course. It will take decades before Finland reaches carbon neutrality, because the political parties which care the most about climate change rarely are successful in elections. Gen Z can't even read and thinking will be outsourced more and more to AI. I fear the future is doomed unless intellectualism makes a surprise comeback. Art would help with that, but as we have seen, some members even here just aren't interested...

* My 3000+ posts on this discussion board is only a tiny fraction of all the posts I have made online.
 
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Nov 30, 2024 at 6:43 AM Post #18,444 of 18,474
I try to learn new things every day, but I am a slow learner. I am struggling to learn Japanese hiragana and katakana for example. They those can be learned in 2 days and for me even 2 years wasn't enough. I tried to understand music theory for decades before I really started to understand it 6 years ago at age 47. I think I know music theory pretty well now, but it took so long! I have noticed I learn things somewhat efficiently if they are presented to me in the exactly correct format (which is logical connections between things) for my system thinker brain and since only a small fraction of people are system thinkers, things are rarely presented in this format. So, my mind struggles doing the format change. For example learning hiragana, what logic is there behind the fact that す= "SU"? There isn't much logic. People simply need to memorise it and my brain sucks at memorising stuff without logic unless the stuff is considered "important" by my brain and I can't tell it what is. Even if knowing す= "SU" is very important for learning Japanese, my brain thinks it is garbage knowledge because of the lack of logical connections behind it.

I teach people if I can, but I am also aware of my limitations as my life humbles me. There are things I know about a lot and can teach about, but I am also aware there are people who know even more and are better teachers. Isn't it only wise to let the better teachers teach?
I'm very much the same, a system thinker and stuff that my brain (not me) decides isn't worth knowing doesn't stick. In those situations there is little option but to immerse yourself in it and stick with it, even if it takes you much longer than others. There may be no logic to 「す」 being "SU", but e.g. there is logic to 「森」("mori") meaning "forest" when 「木」("ki") means "tree", or 「火山」("kazan") meaning "volcano" when 「火」("hi" or "ka") means "fire" and 「山」("yama" or "san") means "mountain".
FWIW, I find Japanese to be a good example of how not to design a language if one had the luxury option to design a language from scratch. Multiple different readings for the same characters, both on'yomi and kun'yomi? Three different writing systems (kanji, hiragana, katakana)? Several different uses of honorifics depending on cultural context and who you are speaking with? The amount of time spent learning the kanas and some 2,000 kanji at school in Japan are totally out of proportion compared to the little time children in the west need to learn a modest 26 letters of the alphabet.

Incidentally; I'm not sure if you are into Japanese music, but seeking out some Japanese music is a handy (if slow) aid to learning the kana syllabaries at least.

If everyone left teaching to those they consider more knowledgeable in a subject than themselves, then no-one would be teaching at all. It is an interesting irony if not paradox; often those who learn the most are most aware of how little they know. Teach what you feel comfortable teaching, it's fine.
 
Nov 30, 2024 at 9:43 AM Post #18,445 of 18,474
I teach, and teaching isn’t about knowing things. It’s about creating a spirit of interest and discovery. A teacher can learn along with his students. But the important thing is to find students that are eager to learn and to guide them to discover.

It’s actually easier to find a good teacher than it is to find a good student.
 
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Nov 30, 2024 at 9:54 AM Post #18,446 of 18,474
Strange thread. Some think joy needs a blind test.

I claim art is a myth

My amp is an opaque piece of art.

Cables .... matter

Knowledge can be different than experience. They can both be correct, not just the one true answer.

And it's a myth that anyone is better that anyone IMO

Happy Black Friday :)
*dismissive wanking gesture*
 
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Nov 30, 2024 at 10:02 AM Post #18,447 of 18,474
Thanks, man. Every response I’ve ever received has been insulting, so I’ve stopped worrying about it. Absorb what helps, ignore the rest, right?
So are you just waiting around for someone to tell you what you want to hear? Why not refute something? Gregorio wasn’t being insulting. He, like most of us here are just tired of the bad faith pilgrims from subjective land coming in here to JAQ off.
 
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Nov 30, 2024 at 10:11 AM Post #18,448 of 18,474
@AussieMick

As usual, gregorio is not only horribly insulting, but totally wrong. He misunderstands both the original claim and the substantial body of evidence supporting it. He:

a) misinterprets the claim

The original statement does not argue that perception worsens universally under all forms of pressure. Instead, it highlights that under high-stakes pressure or psychologically taxing conditions, perception and cognitive performance can become fallible due to well-documented psychological and physiological mechanisms.

gregorio oversimplifies the argument by conflating focused effort with pressure-induced stress, which are distinct phenomena. While focused attention often improves task performance, pressure can impair perception and decision-making due to its impact on cognitive and physiological resources.

b) ignores scientific evidence

The critique dismisses the claim as "made-up" or a "myth," despite abundant empirical evidence supporting the effect of pressure on performance. Key findings include:

Choking Under Pressure: Research consistently shows that individuals with high cognitive capacity perform worse in stressful, high-pressure situations (e.g., solving complex math problems) because their working memory becomes overwhelmed by anxiety or self-monitoring. (https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10345073/)

Distraction and Explicit Monitoring Accounts: These theories explain how pressure can disrupt normal cognitive functioning. When individuals are highly aware of being evaluated (e.g., listening critically under pressure), they often overanalyze their performance, leading to errors. (https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10345073/)

Physiological and Psychological Responses to Stress: Changes in cortisol levels, heart rate, and attentional focus under pressure are well-documented and affect perception and performance. (https://first10em.com/performance-under-pressure/)

Dismissing these findings as "audiophile myths" reflects a lack of familiarity with well-established psychological and neuroscientific research.

c). conflates focus and pressure

gregorio wrongly assumes that careful focus and high-pressure conditions are equivalent. While focusing attention can improve perception, pressure introduces additional psychological stressors, such as:

Cognitive Load: Pressure consumes working memory, reducing the mental resources available for tasks like critical listening or decision-making.

Emotional Interference: Anxiety triggered by high stakes can distract attention from the task.

Tunnel Vision: Stress often narrows focus to immediate, surface-level cues, reducing the ability to process subtler differences.

These factors explain why pressure can impair tasks requiring nuanced perception, even if one is attempting to focus.

d). commits the "Common Sense and Facts" Fallacy

gregorio appeals to "common sense" as if it trumps scientific evidence. This is a logical fallacy known as the argument from incredulity—assuming something is false simply because it seems counterintuitive. Scientific evidence often challenges "common sense," as rigorous research uncovers complexities not immediately obvious.

Examples include:

The fact that athletes, musicians, and test-takers can choke under pressure despite extensive preparation.

The well-documented impairments of memory and decision-making under stress.

Relying on "common sense" rather than engaging with evidence undermines the credibility of the critique.

5. Strawman Argument About Focus

gregorio claims that focusing carefully should improve perception and questions why humans evolved the ability to focus if it worsens perception. This is a strawman argument—misrepresenting the original claim to make it easier to attack.

The original argument does not claim that focus is inherently detrimental. Instead, it acknowledges that under pressure, the mechanisms that allow us to focus (e.g., working memory, attention) are disrupted, leading to diminished performance in specific contexts.


gregorio fails because he:

1. Misinterprets the distinction between focus and pressure-induced stress.

2. Ignores a wealth of scientific evidence demonstrating how pressure impairs perception and performance.

3. Relies on "common sense" rather than engaging with well-supported research.

4. Constructs a strawman argument, misrepresenting the original claim.

The original statement stands on solid scientific ground. Stress and high-stakes pressure alter cognitive and physiological conditions, often leading to reduced performance in tasks requiring nuanced perception or decision-making.
The original statement stands on solid scientific ground? What, that ABX testing is impossible because pressure equals bad feelings equals bad results? On the contrary that only reinforces how terribly fallible human hearing is.
 
Nov 30, 2024 at 4:01 PM Post #18,449 of 18,474
..., but e.g. there is logic to 「森」("mori") meaning "forest" when 「木」("ki") means "tree",
Hah, I thought about this after I had made my post as a potential counter-example. There is definitely logic in Japanese language here and there, but also a lot of stuff without much logic.

Incidentally; I'm not sure if you are into Japanese music, but seeking out some Japanese music is a handy (if slow) aid to learning the kana syllabaries at least.
I can't say I am much into Japanese music, but I am into J-Horror. That's what made me interested of getting into Japanese language. I am also into vaporwave music where the use of Japanese language in the track/artist names is a common stylistic choice. Just today I was listening to 猫シCorp.
 
Nov 30, 2024 at 6:26 PM Post #18,450 of 18,474
I can't say I am much into Japanese music, but I am into J-Horror. That's what made me interested of getting into Japanese language. I am also into vaporwave music where the use of Japanese language in the track/artist names is a common stylistic choice. Just today I was listening to 猫シCorp.
Though off-topic, I shall proceed to resonate with you regarding J-horror and also K-horror or art film. As for Japanese music, other than the folk music which can be interesting, I have been particularly fond of Susumu Hirasawa as a substantial counterpoint to my classical music and some other vocalists.
 

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