[moredes]

I modded my D5000's. I was religious about following the directions, and I completed the entire modification--it wasn't just a partial mod; it probably took me 5 hours. I did the mod out of curiosity--chasing the 'holy grail'--I thought, for the minimal financial expense and time, the feasibility of project was acceptable.

When I listened to the modded D5000's they sounded terrible--just downright awful--"gelded" is the best description I can think of--the bass was almost non-existent, mid-range was GONE, and the highs were muted badly. "Muddy" doesn't begin to describe the overall quality the new sound had. I double- and triple-checked my work--the fiberfill in the cups was easily thin enough that I could see through it. To be sure, I removed it completely from the housings and still got no reward. ALL the holes lined up and were open where they were intended to be; my Dynamat installation was neat and in my view, perfect. I didn't 'poke holes and punch several times with a hole-punch'--I used a leather hole punch that fit perfectly over each plastic Denon hole--I could see the mating of the Dynamat and Denon was exact, everywhere.

It took me almost 7 hours to remove every trace of Dynamat (a real chore, I can tell ya--Xacto knife, surgical tweezers, etc). Now it sounds exactly as I remember the OEM's, with one exception--it probably requires 10-15% more gain adjustment to get the same volume I had before the modification. I've checked and double checked for leftover 'insulation', and can find none. Zero. I did all my checking with a 3X magnifying ring-lamp. Obviously something's changed, but I can live with it, since the amp I have can easily support the extra 10-15% demand. The only regret I have is that the screws are almost loose from so many R&R's.

I will say that the one thing I liked, and retained after stripping all the Dynamat and fiberfill out was that I left the 3" plastic cup rings and their accompanying fiberfill in the ear cushions. They REALLY helped the 5000's directional qualities--no more of that "middle of the head" sound.

Any ideas why my mod turned out so unsatisfactory? If it makes any difference, my units are an OPPO 970 and a SP MPX3 SLAM running a Mullard ECC32 and two National Union 6BL7GTA's--and I know the low-impedance Denon's rep, but the Singlepower handles the Denons just fine. I just thought this "holy grail" move would bring something better, and I dunno why it didn't.

Thank you.

 

[StanleyB1]

I think that you might have accidentally swapped round the plus and minus cables on one of the cans. So the left and right signals cancel each other out in your ears.

 

[spinali]

Interesting. That's why I'm having mine done by Markl - he's done dozens of these mods, and if you decide to sell your D5000 after all, it's an "official" mod done by the master.

 

[moredes]

Quote:

I think that you might have accidentally swapped round the plus and minus cables on one of the cans. So the left and right signals cancel each other out in your ears.

I never ever disconnected my cables.

 

[markl]

That's weird.

Do you have some close-up pics of the insides with the mods on?

I'm still skeptical about use of tube amps with the D5000, stock or otherwise. I was loaned a Singlepower in the old toaster style, and it totally crapped out trying to power the low-z Sony R10s, at about 60% of the volume I usually listen at (above average volume with 90db peaks). It was almost useless for driving them even if you listen at microscopic levels. Bottom line, I was not impressed with that amps's abilities with low-impedence cans.

I would guess that at least half the folks who say the stock D5000 has OK bass levels are underpowering them, either with computer sound cards or tube amps that are softly clipping away in the bass dept. Put them on even an entry-level or mid-fi solid state amp and the bass will be revealed for what it is.

Under-powering them is one way to control excessive bass, but you trade off with a slooooow sound, with a loose, amorphous bass cloud, and no dynamics.

All that said, your problem sounds like something completely different. Something seems to have happened to them during your process because even now, after you say you've removed everything, you still have to crank the volume up more than you did pre-mods.

Something went awry, but I have no idea what it could be?

 

[Cool_Torpedo]

Perhaps some fiberloft or Dynamat's adhesive got into the driver itself. Other than that I see no reason for the drivers losing sensitivity. Have you checked there's no change in the amp or source settings?

Rgrds

 

[sacd lover]

Quote:

Originally Posted by markl /img/forum/go_quote.gif That's weird. Do you have some close-up pics of the insides with the mods on? I'm still skeptical about use of tube amps with the D5000, stock or otherwise. I was loaned a Singlepower in the old toaster style, and it totally crapped out trying to power the low-z Sony R10s, at about 60% of the volume I usually listen at (above average volume with 90db peaks). It was almost useless for driving them even if you listen at microscopic levels. Bottom line, I was not impressed with that amps's abilities with low-impedence cans. I would guess that at least half the folks who say the stock D5000 has OK bass levels are underpowering them, either with computer sound cards or tube amps that are softly clipping away in the bass dept. Put them on even an entry-level or mid-fi solid state amp and the bass will be revealed for what it is. Under-powering them is one way to control excessive bass, but you trade off with a slooooow sound, with a loose, amorphous bass cloud, and no dynamics. All that said, your problem sounds like something completely different. Something seems to have happened to them during your process because even now, after you say you've removed everything, you still have to crank the volume up more than you did pre-mods. Something went awry, but I have no idea what it could be?

Mark, Mark , Mark .... how many times have I told you the SP amps using 6sn7 output tubes dont drive low impedances well; especially if you listen at higher than normal volumes.

A high voltage MPX3 like moredes has using 6bl7gta outputs will drive anything short of a K1000.

 

[sacd lover]

I left the 3" plastic cup rings and their accompanying fiberfill in the ear cushions. They REALLY helped the 5000's directional qualities--no more of that "middle of the head" sound.

I would suspect this may be why you have lost some sensitivity.

 

[moredes]

That's weird.

Do you have some close-up pics of the insides with the mods on?

Thanks for your response, Mark. I didn't take pictures. Now I wish I had....

I'm still skeptical about use of tube amps with the D5000, stock or otherwise.

I didn't realize that your mod was more intended for SS applications than tube amp'd cans.

I was loaned a Singlepower in the old toaster style, and it totally crapped out trying to power the low-z Sony R10s, at about 60% of the volume I usually listen at (above average volume with 90db peaks). It was almost useless for driving them even if you listen at microscopic levels. Bottom line, I was not impressed with that amps's abilities with low-impedence cans.

I think from your description you're talking about the early Singlepower PPX's... I'm new at all this, and the toasters have been out for a long time, but I don't remember the model names specifically. However, that toaster didn't have the power to drive D5000's, that's for sure. However, the MPX3 SLAMs and SP Extremes aren't supposed to have any troubles with low-impedance phones.

I would guess that at least half the folks who say the stock D5000 has OK bass levels are underpowering them, either with computer sound cards or tube amps that are softly clipping away in the bass dept. Put them on even an entry-level or mid-fi solid state amp and the bass will be revealed for what it is.

I experimented with a friend's Denon receiver's HP output before I decided to buy the MPX3 SLAM; the Singlepower's benefits are warmth, range and tone--but I didn't hear any drop-off in bass quality between the two amplification systems when the cans were unmodified.

Under-powering them is one way to control excessive bass, but you trade off with a slooooow sound, with a loose, amorphous bass cloud, and no dynamics.

All that said, your problem sounds like something completely different. Something seems to have happened to them during your process because even now, after you say you've removed everything, you still have to crank the volume up more than you did pre-mods.

Something went awry, but I have no idea what it could be?

Yeah, I dunno. I was getting leery of continually R&R'ing the screws so I spent an awful lot of time with the parts under a 3X lens removing leftover fiberfill and Dynamat adhesive; I actually spent as much time inspecting as removing, and in the end I didn't see anything left inadvertantly. (that's why I used surgical tweezers--to remove the adhesive from the groove in the plastic around the driver.

 

[markl]

Quote:

Mark, Mark , Mark .... how many times have I told you the SP amps using 6sn7 output tubes dont drive low impedances well; especially if you listen at higher than normal volumes.

Maybe so. But the Berning MicroZOTL which also uses 6SN7s did a much much better job of driving the R10s (still not fully adequate, though).

Nevertheless, I don't think amplification is his central problem (but probably is a contributing factor).

 

[markl]

Quote:

I didn't realize that your mod was more intended for SS applications than tube amp'd cans.

Not just mod-ed, but stock as well are better served by solid state amps, IMO (though I'm sure as many will chime in to correct me, there are no doubt many tube amps that will do fine

). D5000 has a very low 25ohm impedence.

 

[moredes]

Quote:

I left the 3" plastic cup rings and their accompanying fiberfill in the ear cushions. They REALLY helped the 5000's directional qualities--no more of that "middle of the head" sound. I would suspect this may be why you have lost some sensitivity.

Hi Earl,

Thanks for the input. What do you mean by 'sensitivity'? I don't think I lost anything once I returned the Denons to their OEM configuration (with the excepted modification of the 3" plastic rings and fiberfill)--that is to say, once the MPX3 is cranked to my usual sound levels, the only difference I hear now is a more frontal directional origin; the sound quality seems to be just as it was when OEM. The only difference is..

Ach Zo!!! DUH! "sensitivity"!! uh.... 10-15% for directional bias!!! I'll give that up any day for the improvement in my newly perceived directional quality.

(I was gonna delete this post once I figured out what you meant, but now I'm gonna leave it because I think your observation about "sensitivity" is the obvious answer to the mystery of why I needed to increase the gain level.)

 

[moredes]

Quote:

I didn't realize that your mod was more intended for SS applications than tube amp'd cans. Not just mod-ed, but stock as well are better served by solid state amps, IMO (though I'm sure as many will chime in to correct me, there are no doubt many tube amps that will do fine ). D5000 has a very low 25ohm impedence.

I shouldn't even ask... but curiosity's getting to me...

Mark, what're you using for an amp with your modified D5000's? It's just curiousity...it's just curiosity... it's just curiosity...

I ain't poppin' for 'nother 2+G's for 'nother set of D5000's and an SS amp.

The reason ya'll need to modifiy your D5000's is, you're using the wrong amp format to begin with...

Can I get an 'Amen', Earl? Wait. I gotta go to the HA forum and get some 'a the SP fanatics to bandwagon up.

 

[markl]

moredes, I'm using a Rudistor RP010, soon to be replaced with an RP010B (going balanced).

Quote:

The reason ya'll need to modifiy your D5000's is, you're using the wrong amp format to begin with...

It's not just a matter of amplification, any number of my customers have been using tubes, but they still find the bass too much, and appreciate the mod. But again, under-powering to roll off bass is a bad strategy, IMO, for the reasons I cited previously. Say goodbye to fine details, speed, attack, and dynamics and hello to fuzzy, soft, amorphous bass. But, then again, some people legitimately like that kind of sound, and who am I to say they're "wrong"?

I do want to clarify one mis-conception about the mod, which is that it castrates the bass response and totally attenuates it out of existence. They do nothing to the driver itself, just modify the environment it sits in. All the mod is doing is removing vibrations from the frame caused by the big bass of the D5000's driver. Now you lose some of the tactile sensation of throbbing vibrations, but that is not actual musical bass information. In exchange, the bass sound tightens up dramatically, and you get better dynamics, heft and punch because the bass sound isn't so sloppy. So the driver has fewer places to transfer the vibrational energy, so the whole presentation seems to tighten up and get more focused. The bass no longer encroaches into the mids, either, so they seem to come forward a bit and be more articulate.

Stuffing the cups, however, will attenuate the bass, which is why I always caution to use just a teeny tiny amount, and actually now recommend not stuffing at all.

 

[moredes]

Quote:

moredes, I'm using a Rudistor RP010, soon to be replaced with an RP010B (going balanced). The reason ya'll need to modifiy your D5000's is, you're using the wrong amp format to begin with... It's not just a matter of amplification, any number of my customers have been using tubes, but they still find the bass too much, and appreciate the mod. But again, under-powering to roll off bass is a bad strategy, IMO, for the reasons I cited previously. Say goodbye to fine details, speed, attack, and dynamics and hello to fuzzy, soft, amorphous bass. But, then again, some people legitimately like that kind of sound, and who am I to say they're "wrong"? I do want to clarify one mis-conception about the mod, which is that it castrates the bass response and totally attenuates it out of existence. They do nothing to the driver itself, just modify the environment it sits in. All the mod is doing is removing vibrations from the frame caused by the big bass of the D5000's driver. Now you lose some of the tactile sensation of throbbing vibrations, but that is not actual musical bass information. In exchange, the bass sound tightens up dramatically, and you get better dynamics, heft and punch because the bass sound isn't so sloppy. So the driver has fewer places to transfer the vibrational energy, so the whole presentation seems to tighten up and get more focused. The bass no longer encroaches into the mids, either, so they seem to come forward a bit and be more articulate. Stuffing the cups, however, will attenuate the bass, which is why I always caution to use just a teeny tiny amount, and actually now recommend not stuffing at all.

Thanks for that, Mark. A currency converter rolls the Rudistor over from E's to USD to the ~ $5200 range. I cain't tell ya how much that makes me smile... 'way too much "class" for me to 'experiment'... feels like I just put some money in savings.

I'm runnin' a "pauper's" audio system--with BW Nautilus 805's and HTM1 in a 7.1 setup with an SVS PB12-Plus/2 as my subwoofer. I really like the SVS a lot, though it's "obsolete" now. But it's very tight, fast, punchy, and clean. Within my own financial limitations, I tried to duplicate that sound quality in a set of cans. I like my music loud. Enough so the knickknacks in the house are blue-puttied to their shelves (and there hasn't been an earthquake here in recorded history); the Denon was definitely up to the task without the mod, and though I lost most of the bass response with my original attempt at your mod--when I removed the fiberfill, as you say, I didn't notice enough change to recommend using it at all in the cups. It's a mystery to me why the cans sounded so bad. I was amazed (and worried) to hear them sounding so bad; I hoped I could return them to OEM. Some combination of "whatever" caused this poor sound quality.

I did notice that the 'phones didn't vibrate--as you said, bass response isn't really tactile; and whatever amount of that sensation was there before was eliminated and noticeable.The modified bass certainly didn't encroach on the mid-range. For whatever reason, the bass lost it's clean, tight, punchiness--it was muted with a real sloppy fuzziness, just the opposite from what I expected.

I guess it's a case of MPX3 SLAM-Denon D5000's vs. Dynamat. Or my attempt at your Dynamat mod. In all my reading and searching (and it was quite extensive) I think I'm the first on this forum using the MPX3-D5000 combination who's reported implementing your D5000 mod--(in fact, I think there's only one other member who's discussed his MPX3 SLAM-D5000 combo in any detail [Beav]).

As to the detriments of fiberfill, the only other fiberfill (aside from the cups) that I installed is still in them--the ear cushions--to modify the direction of originating sound.

Thank you. None of this (including my retro to OEM) means that I didn't appreciate your original mod post.