Szell's Cleveland Orchestra Beethoven Box: Still a Bargain@80USD?

[jjhatfield]

Beethoven: Symphonies Nos. 1 - 9, Piano Concertos Nos. 1 - 5 [BOX SET] [IMPORT]

I see this used to be $30, and now it is $80. Just wanted to know if you classical experts still think this is a bargain at that price? Also, how is the SQ on this? I picked up a recommendation for this somewhere on this forum, cannot remember where now, is this still the way to go to get a lot of excellent Beethoven performed by a fantastic orchestra? If there is a better way, other recommendations are appreciated. Thanks!

 

[DarkAngel]

I have better deal for you at Overstock, $46 with very cheap shipping!
Szell

Also they have essential great performance Szell/RCA Dvorak 7,8,9 & Misc for great price:
Szell

 

[seacard]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjhatfield Beethoven: Symphonies Nos. 1 - 9, Piano Concertos Nos. 1 - 5 [BOX SET] [IMPORT] I see this used to be $30, and now it is $80. Just wanted to know if you classical experts still think this is a bargain at that price? Also, how is the SQ on this? I picked up a recommendation for this somewhere on this forum, cannot remember where now, is this still the way to go to get a lot of excellent Beethoven performed by a fantastic orchestra? If there is a better way, other recommendations are appreciated. Thanks!

These are good recordings, but I would not pay $80 for them. However, as you may have seen, I am a big proponent of modern recordings and modern sound. I also think the modern interpretations of Beethoven are more correct than the classic ones. For Piano Concertos, I would buy the Harnoncourt/Aimard set or the Abbado/Pollini set. For the symphonies, my favorite so far is Gardiner, although I am looking at the Vanska and Fey recordings right now. Especially if you are listening on headphones, that's the way to go.

 

[jjhatfield]

Quote:

Originally Posted by seacard These are good recordings, but I would not pay $80 for them. However, as you may have seen, I am a big proponent of modern recordings and modern sound. I also think the modern interpretations of Beethoven are more correct than the classic ones. For Piano Concertos, I would buy the Harnoncourt/Aimard set or the Abbado/Pollini set. For the symphonies, my favorite so far is Gardiner, although I am looking at the Vanska and Fey recordings right now. Especially if you are listening on headphones, that's the way to go.

Since I am a classical nub and really a headphone nub as well, I definitely would prefer to have modern sound quality on my initial recordings. Classical first appealed to me because I was so delighted with the way it sounded on my setup. I appreciate your recommendations, and will look into them.

EDIT: Just foundGardiner At yourmusic.com: 30 bucks.

Glad I made this thread.

 

[seacard]

Good choice on the Gardiner. I just ordered the Vanska discs from CDUniverse (they are at a more reasonable $15 price there) and will let you know how they compare.

The Piano Concertos are truly awesome and I would recommend seeking out a good recording of them. And if you're trying to fill out your Beethoven collection, the Violin Concerto is another spectacular piece. This is my favorite: Violin Concerto, but there are many good ones (including a great recording with Perlman / Guilini [analog, but good sound] and a good recording by Joshua Bell).

And don't forget the Piano Sonatas (Goode, and the newest Brendel have the best sound quality; Kempff stereo has a great performance) and the String Quartets (Emerson or Takacs are my top choices). With those five (Symphonies, Piano Concertos, Violin Concerto, Piano Sonatas, and String Quartets) you will not only have the essential Beethoven, but some of the greatest classical music ever written (best symphonies, best piano sonatas, top 2 or 3 string quartets, top 5 violin concerto, and Piano Concertos second only to Mozart's).

 

[Bunnyears]

I don't know about the Fleisher Szell concertos and symphonies right now. I read somewhere that they are about to be re-released in a new remastered edition. I only wish I could remember where I saw that! The red box set at overstock is a great price for them, but if they have been remastered with improved sq, then that would be the way to go. In fact, I might be interested in repurchasing them if the sq is very improved.

 

[jjhatfield]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bunnyears I don't know about the Fleisher Szell concertos and symphonies right now. I read somewhere that they are about to be re-released in a new remastered edition. I only wish I could remember where I saw that! The red box set at overstock is a great price for them, but if they have been remastered with improved sq, then that would be the way to go. In fact, I might be interested in repurchasing them if the sq is very improved.

Sounds good, keep us posted, and if you remember where you saw that, let us know. For now I'm sticking with more modern recordings, just to get my feet wet.

 

[Bunnyears]

The Abbado/Pollini concerto cycle is better than the Harnoncourt/Aimard cc, imo. I have both and I rarely put on the Harnoncourt. His Beethoven tends to have a very mannered and artificial quality and you never know where the tempos are going. Also, Rattle's Beethoven (also at ym) is not particularly outstanding in any way except for packaging.

For a good modern symphonies set, you should also consider the Zinman (very inexpensive at Amazon partners) or Barenboim/Staatskapelle Berlin (more expansive tempos). Some consider them "soporific" but they fall squarely into the Furtwängler tradition and the sq is fabulous. Other great bargain sets include Blomstedt (Staatskapelle Dresden) on Brilliant Classics and Gunter Wand's (NDR Sinfonieorchester) cycle on RCA. The Blomstedt cycle are analog recordings that have been digitally mastered and sound wonderful. The SKD is also one of the most interesting sounding orchestras around, so it is well worth investing in. Colin Davis also has a Beethoven symphony cycle recording with the SKD in digital sound, but I prefer the Blomstedt interpretations. The Wand cycle is one of the great ones in the lean, mean Toscanini style, and the sq is quite good (digital recordings) and the 9th in the cycle is one of the very best.

All of these cycles are excellent, but for pure performance, the Szell cycle really is one of the very top of all time while the Fleisher piano concertos are the reference afaic! Those concertos are better than the Abbado by far. Pollini tends to be something of a pounder in Beethoven where Fleisher with equal masculine power just has more sensitivity. Just listen to Pollini's late Beethoven Sonatas and Diabelli Variations if you doubt this.

Another great concerto cycle would be the one done by Mitsuko Uchida, Kurt Sanderling and the Royal Concertgebouw. That too, goes for bargain prices. Sanderling is a phenomenal conductor and he really inspired masterful performances from Uchida who usually sounds less magisterial. That's an old-fashioned majestic concerto cycle that really delivers and at $16 currently from the Amazon partners, is something that should be snapped up!

 

[bigshot]

Watch the DVD "The Art of Conducting" with Szell conducting Beethoven's fifth, and you'll never buy a classical CD because it's a digital recording again. Szell was one of the greatest conductors who ever lived, conducting one of the greatest orchestras in its prime. That's what makes music speak to you, not whether they recorded digitally or not.

See ya
Steve

 

[seacard]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigshot Watch the DVD "The Art of Conducting" with Szell conducting Beethoven's fifth, and you'll never buy a classical CD because it's a digital recording again. Szell was one of the greatest conductors who ever lived, conducting one of the greatest orchestras in its prime. That's what makes music speak to you, not whether they recorded digitally or not. See ya Steve

Well, we already had the debate in the Mahler thread, so I'm not going to argue yet again whether Harnoncourt or Abbado or Gardiner or even lesser known conductors like Vanska or Fey or Zinman have the ability to understand the music and waive the baton like Szell.

But assuming you are correct, and today's conductors are genetically or environmentally inferior to conductors 40 years ago, my point was the for a classical music newbie and/or a headphone listener, sound quality is important. There are some CDs that I cannot listen to on headphones because I don't enjoy them even though they are some of my favorite recordings when listening on speakers.

 

[DarkAngel]

I think people are too concerned about sound quality............most classical is very good sound quality by any standard.

There are some early digital CD recordings from 1981-86 that can have treble issues and before mid 1950's all performances recorded in mono. But even early stereo from 1950's sound great and 1960/1970s analog is also uniformly great sounding especially when heard on stereo system vs headphones......I would not hesitate for one second from buying the Szell set because of sound quality concerns compared to new modern set.

 

[DarkAngel]

Now there is the whole issue with Beethoven sets about HIP (historically informed performance) which I think was a breath of fresh air especially in early Beethoven symphonies. The smaller forces with faster clarified tones uncovers some interesting sounds previously buried in larger denser mix of full classical performances.

Hogwood/Lyre and Norrington/EMI HIP sets from 1980s caused quite a stir and much debate when they first appeared, but now almost all modern sets that followed have used various hybrid HIP elements to get the best of old and new styles. So this is perhaps one advantage of a "good" modern set and makes collecting multiple sets so interesting.

Later Beethoven symphonies, especially the 9th, usually sound better in older performances to me. The larger scale orchestra here is used to full advantage and now becomes an asset in the hands of skilled conductor.

 

[Masolino]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkAngel Hogwood/Lyre and Norrington/EMI HIP sets from 1980s caused quite a stir and much debate when they first appeared, but now almost all modern sets that followed have used various hybrid HIP elements to get the best of old and new styles. So this is perhaps one advantage of a "good" modern set and makes collecting multiple sets so interesting. Later Beethoven symphonies, especially the 9th, usually sound better in older performances to me. The larger scale orchestra here is used to full advantage and now becomes an asset in the hands of skilled conductor.

I love the 9th recordings in the Gardiner, Herreweghe and Hogwood sets. The Hogwood especially shows how thrilling an all-period-instrument ensemble can sound, properly amplified with quadruple woodwinds and brass, two sets of timpani etc. (based on materials used in Beethoven's premiere performances). The fact that period instruments are used doesn't necessarily mean that the ensemble has to be a small one.

 

[DarkAngel]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Masolino I love the 9th recordings in the Gardiner, Herreweghe and Hogwood sets. The Hogwood especially shows how thrilling an all-period-instrument ensemble can sound, properly amplified with quadruple woodwinds and brass, two sets of timpani etc. (based on materials used in Beethoven's premiere performances). The fact that period instruments are used doesn't necessarily mean that the ensemble has to be a small one.

Quote:

Later Beethoven symphonies, especially the 9th, usually sound better in older performances to me. The larger scale orchestra here is used to full advantage and now becomes an asset in the hands of skilled conductor.

Notice I left myself an escape clause when I said "usually" sound better....

If I went back to other threads here of best Beethoven 9ths my top five lists are all older before HIP movement 9ths, so for me have yet to find a reference HIP Beethoven 9th......

 

[Masolino]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkAngel Notice I left myself an escape clause when I said "usually" sound better.... If I went back to other threads here of best Beethoven 9ths my top five lists are all older before HIP movement 9ths, so for me have yet to find a reference HIP Beethoven 9th......

"For you (or me)" has got to be another of the escape clause(s) in use here.