[subtle]

Some very good recommendations here.

I'm pretty sure you could find an S2000 with a hardtop in your price range, but it would probably have to be a 2000 or 2001 model. I too have been very interested in this car and have done a lot of research on it. Apparently Honda made, what some consider, improvements to the suspension in 2002. It made the car less twitchy and unpredictable at the limit. Some enthusiasts have claimed that it was "dumbing down" the car for American buyers that don't know how to drive properly, but I haven't driven either so I can't speak from experience. I have read though, on numerous occasions, that they are not the greatest car at all to have in a wet and cold environment. Being so lightweight and rear wheel drive, with the engine up front, causes the rear end to lose major stability in wet weather. I've read some people state that when the tread on their rear tires is low, that they literally can't go over 50 mph or so without the rear end getting squirrely. This is definitely something to consider if you like to drive hard and fast and will be encountering rain often. Supposedly it's like a Jekyll and Hyde type of thing because it apparently handles and grips tremendously in dry weather. That's obviously the case considering how well it works as a track car and looking at its race results. Kind of double edged sword in this one.

What do you like out of a car besides it being able to take abuse? Do you have a preference of inline 4 vs. V8? Is lightweight and tossability extremely important to you? Do you prefer top handling and taking turns aggressively or do you like mashing the pedal and going fast in a straight line? Is gas mileage and insurance a factor for you, or is that a non-issue?

 

[Orpheus]

Quote:

Originally Posted by catscratch /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'm in the market for a used sports car, and I would like to hear some advice. I'm not an experienced car buyer and am only beginning to become an automotive enthusiast. Half a year ago I almost talked myself into buying an S2000, helped by some excellent advice here, but I managed to come to my senses just in time. At the moment, though, I seem to be slipping back into madness, and maybe the time has come to capitalize upon it and get some new wheels. Still, I'm not looking to buy right this instant; I want to think about this for a month or two and see if I can't come to my senses as I did before. My criteria are: 1) manual transmission 2) rear-wheel drive preferably; all wheel drive is OK but front-wheel drive is a no-no 3) price range 14-15k, 18k absolute maximum ceiling 4) reliability when used as a daily driver and driven hard, and 5) not a ragtop since the weather here is absolutely horrible for convertibles. It's humid, very hot during the summer and very cold during the winter, with constant precipitation and rapid temperature shifts, though mercifully snow is rarely a problem. Right now I have an '01 Acura 3.2 CL Type-S. It's very nice in its own right, but it's not what I'm looking for at the moment. It's automatic, front-wheel drive, and entirely too isolated in feel. It feels like a luxury-ish car unsuccessfully disguised as a performance car rather than something that is built to be a performance car from the ground up. I really like the engine, the ride, and the steering, but with 260hp on the front wheels it handles like a pig at the limit, and it really has a hard time putting power down off the line. It also suffered from all of the known transmission issues; I've had the tranny rebuilt at the 50k mile mark, but now it's 75k and the tranny is starting to get sloppy again. The first rebuild was free, but I don't want to have to pay for the next one. I won't be using it as down payment but giving it to a family member, so money is very tight. I'm thinking of either an RX-8 or a 350Z, but I have no experience with ether. I like the sound of rotaries, and I don't mind having to wring it out to get at the performance, but is it going to be reliable in the long run? RX-8s have depreciated like a stone, and from what I've read it is due to incessant recalls and reliability issues. Provided that I know how to take care of a rotary (and I'm aware of its oil usage and cold start issues), will it last, when it will be driven hard on a daily basis? And is it really as fast as it looks on paper? The torque seems pretty pitiful and it's not all that light. The 350Z looks very attractive on paper, but I'm probably looking at an early model in the price range, and I've seen some very poor reliability reports on them. The performance seems about right and I probably won't mind the engine noise either; we have a G35 in the family and that's basically the same engine. It sounds raspy and awful below 4k rpm but past that it sings, and with the way I drive, it will be past 4k rpm a lot. What would you recommend? What else should I look at? I can't have a ragtop in this weather (or a convertible in general), so the S2000, as I originally planned, is out. But what else is there? Can I really get an STI or an Evo in the price range? Maybe an older 3 series BMW? I don't care about carrying capacity, practicality, and fuel economy, and given how I'm over 25 and have a clean record insurance isn't going to be an issue either. I really cannot emphasize enough that it has to be able to survive being driven hard on a daily basis. I'm not a street-racing punk anymore but I still drive very hard and very fast, and this car will be subjected to some serious abuse. I'm open to the idea of aftermarket tweaking, as long as it doesn't sacrifice any reliability. I don't know the first thing about it, though.

well here's my opinion: you shouldn't rule out the s2000--you can get a hardtop for that car. looks better with one anyway. hell, if you have the money, you can even get a carbon fiber roof. i know you don't--but it's an option for the future.

i don't know much about the rx-8, but i can tell you that the most serious track folks i see don't really consider the 350z--it's too heavy. s2000 is a great car. miata is awesome too--you might want to consider that, though looks too feminine. but balance-wise, miata is almost perfect, if you can live with the looks. evo's and sti's are of course top choice as well. i think that's the best in your price range:

1. s2000
2. miata
3. evo
4. sti

as for bmw, forget it. the maintenance on those things are big $$$. and they aren't very reliable. the price of maintenance will kill you. same with fancier sports cars like corvettes and porsches--even if you could find one in your price range, you'd easily pay double in maintenance over a few years (trust me, i know.)

if you can get 2 cars, as a project car i highly recommend a nissan 240sx. it's handling is incredible for what should be a crappy car. problem is you really gotta know your cars to find the gems amongst those. me and my friend have gone through a few of those.

one option you may not have considered is getting a learner. i mean, get a miata and drive the hell out of it at the track. then you can learn how to drive well. after you're done with it and want something faster, sell it and get a evo/sti/s2000.

personally, i have a modified z06 that is hella fast. but it's too fast for my skill. and honestly, i actually have more fun driving the 240sx on the track. much more relaxing and easier to practice driving well. this one dude i was talking to has an ae86 and regularly passes porsches on the track, if you can believe that. the driver is all important.

 

[rincewind]

Don't think anyone has mentioned a Skyline yet? If you're after performance, and open to an older car with some modifications, a R33 or R34 GTR will kick the crud out of some of the other cars mentioned so far. AWD, cheap when on the highway and goes like stink all the time. And that's stock. I dunno about prices in the US though, maybe they're expensive cos they are wrong hand drive for you guys. But they're very popular here in Australia and depending on the model/age, they're cheaper than RX8, 350Z, WRXs etc.

 

[XxATOLxX]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rincewind /img/forum/go_quote.gif Don't think anyone has mentioned a Skyline yet? If you're after performance, and open to an older car with some modifications, a R33 or R34 GTR will kick the crud out of some of the other cars mentioned so far. AWD, cheap when on the highway and goes like stink all the time. And that's stock. I dunno about prices in the US though, maybe they're expensive cos they are wrong hand drive for you guys. But they're very popular here in Australia and depending on the model/age, they're cheaper than RX8, 350Z, WRXs etc.

Skylines here are insanely expensive and risky to own. I've heard of some R34's going for over $50,000. Since they are extremely rare and valuable here to the tuner scene, it might get stolen too.

How much do they normally go for in Australia?

 

[PrototypeX2]

Quote:

Originally Posted by XxATOLxX /img/forum/go_quote.gif Skylines here are insanely expensive and risky to own. I've heard of some R34's going for over $50,000. Since they are extremely rare and valuable here to the tuner scene, it might get stolen too. How much do they normally go for in Australia?

~$30K AUD I believe.

Just for a note, only 10 R34 Skylines were legally imported to the US.

 

[catscratch]

Quote:

Originally Posted by subtle /img/forum/go_quote.gif What do you like out of a car besides it being able to take abuse? Do you have a preference of inline 4 vs. V8? Is lightweight and tossability extremely important to you? Do you prefer top handling and taking turns aggressively or do you like mashing the pedal and going fast in a straight line? Is gas mileage and insurance a factor for you, or is that a non-issue?

I like responsiveness and driver involvement more than anything else, really. The car needs to communicate, and driving it needs to feel like a dynamic process rather than just turning some knobs and watching the scenery go by. I do put more priority on handling than straight-line speed. Power off the line isn't that important to me, but rolling power in the 40-120mph range IS pretty important, and so is being able to put power down effectively out of a turn. So, things like front wheel drive, live rear axles, and poor weight distribution are definitely a big no. High top speed helps as well since it translates into being able to comfortably cruise at triple-digit speeds all day long. I also do want a lot of stability at the limit as well as past the limit. I do a lot of stupid stuff, and having a car that tries to kill me every time I take liberties with it is not going to end well. I'm not a bad driver per se, but I am completely inexperienced when it comes to track driving and handling the car at the limit, so something that's twitchy and unpredictable is not what I'm looking for. For that matter, crash safety is also pretty important, and that's my main concern with the S2000 and other smaller, lighter cars. I would trade some of that light weight and tossability for stability and control at the limit.

I don't have much of an engine preference as long as it gets the job done. But, a nasty engine note will drive me up the wall in the long run. I don't really have an engine note preference save for a fondness for Honda VTEC engines. The V6 in the CL is definitely one of the better-sounding V6s I've heard, especially once it's in VTEC range.

In terms of daily livability, I'm pretty flexible. It has to be reliable, but fuel economy isn't important as long as it's not completely terrible, and seeing that I'm over 25 and have clean records, insurance shouldn't be through the roof even on dedicated sports cars (though of course the records won't stay clean for long if I get something flashy). I do need good all-weather handling; snow is pretty rare here but rain is very frequent and weather changes rapidly and unpredictably. Seating capacity and luggage capacity are not necessities, but they are a nice bonus. I tend to go on a lot of long-distance road trips, and it would be nice to be able to use my car for the purpose every once in a while.

Based on all that, I now think that the STI or an Evo would be ideal for me, but it will be hard to find one in the price range. If I decide to not step it down and settle for something else, I will probably end up waiting for a year or so until STI prices drop, or until my financial situation changes. Or, maybe I'll get lucky and get a good deal on one. In any case, I do have a lot to think about, and I very much do appreciate the advice and ownership experience.

 

[uzziah]

i have a hardon for evo's; love that boxy rally-car look; ditto for wrx, though i know exactly what the dude means about wrx-owners, in fact, when i was taking a course at the community college, this one (spoiled momma's boy in fact) came in saying he was late because he drove over a curb and totalled his subaru; of course he wasn't worried, he didn't actually pay for it; ****er; and the stock spoiler is a turnoff

i'd say: buy something that fits YOU, that you like, the way it feels, the way it looks, something you'll be passionate about, not just whatever is the "best" choice empirically; i wouldn't buy most of the cars mentioned here simple because they don't inspire me, nothing wrong with them, they just don't get my motor running

..........for example, to me, the rx8 is absolutely foul and ugly in every possible way; could be the greatest car ever but i find it totally unappealing

 

[Jingo Lingo]

It's interesting how there are so few Skylines in the states. Every man and his dog has one where I live (which is why I don't want one.)

An option you may not have considered is a 2nd Gen Toyota MR2. Extremely reliable, light, responsive, rear engine, rear wheel drive 2 seater. They probably don't have the power in a straight line compared to some of the cars mentioned but the handling and responsiveness of the engine is quite amazing. You could get an excellent example of one in your price range.

 

[rincewind]

Holy Shamoly @ 10 R34s... I see about 3-4 Skylines when I drive to work every day, and I'm only on the road 15 minutes! There was one next door to me when I went to buy, ppl are very blase about them cos they are so popular here.

(NB: All prices in USD). In Australia right now, you can get an R32 GTR for maybe 15K +/-2K on condition, R33 GTR for 22K +/-3K on condition, R34 GTR maybe 45-50K USD. I was mostly talking about the R33 GTR. Over here, the 350Z and RX8 both sell for about 50K, so you're well ahead buying a skyline in AU even if you have to make a few repairs/upgrades. I've spent about 36k on my R33 GTST (only single turbo, RWD) and it'll kick the crud out of any current car costing remotely close bought new and without mods.

Guess this shows the car market really depends on what country you live in! Never mind responsiveness etc.... maybe you're best just getting a yank tank since that's what'll give you bang for buck over there

EVOs etc will all be expensive I think...

 

[catscratch]

Well '04 STIs are about 19-22k usually, just outside of what I can comfortably afford. I either have to wait for a bit for prices to drop, or wait until something changes financially. I'm finishing up my degree (27 and still not done...) and will probably work for a year before starting grad school, so I will have some time to pick one up.

Evos have been out in the States since '03, and a used one is about a grand cheaper than the STI. I have no idea how reliable they are. I'll have to read up on it, and if they're reliable, then it will be another very good option. I don't really have a preference for one or the other, but then again I haven't driven either. I like the looks and sound of the Evo perhaps a bit more, but it will ultimately be the drive, the ownership experiences of others, and of course the price that decides.

Man, Evo or STI. That's one sweet choice to make.

 

[rincewind]

I'd get the EVO if you've narrowed it down to those choices. Wish I had AWD Tell you what I told my gf: get in the cars... cos never mind performance etc, you might sit in one and think it has the lamest driving position or not feel comfortable cos some other reason. While hunting for her buzzbox we were able to eliminate half the field that way

(ended up with a Suzuki Swift, quite zippy but could use better tyres and slight lowering for less roll).

 

[oicdn]

A car forgotten pretty easily is an Infiniti G20. The handling on those are ridiculous (my GF owns one) and it comes stock with a dumbed down SR20...which means, you can drop in a jspec SR20DETT EASILY and even stock it's BULLETPROOF. You can also drop in an RB32...and you'll still be under $10K and still have a decent "luxury" sedan...

*edit* n/m...it's FWD....

 

[Philimon]

Why not the regular WRX? I believe its around 225hp and is about ten grand cheaper than the STI new. So it must be atleast five grand cheaper than the STI version used. And the bonus is that it doesn't come with the enormous wing that you do not like.

 

[Vertigo-1]

As an owner of an 04 RX-8 that's used as a daily driver and seeing so many people beat on it, I figure I better weigh in here already.

If you like driver involvement and want to have your car make you unexpectedly smile because you realize you're having so much gosh darn fun, then you owe it to yourself to try an RX-8 out. My favorite word to describe the RX-8's drivability is effortless. It feels very effortless to toss it around corners and curves, and the engine also feels very effortless as it climbs to redline. For that matter, it also feels effortless sustaining high RPMs for extended periods of time. There is a lot to be said for having a true 50/50 weight distribution; I can feel the difference it makes every time I enter a 90 degree turn. My best friend owns a 350z; I've never driven it, but I can feel the difference in our cars every time he takes a sharp turn. All the weight feels like it's concentrated in the front. It does NOT feel effortless, it feels like a pig about to give out (even if it isn't about to). Incidentally my friend always comments how incredibly stable my car feels around corners and curves, and often tells me "I think you could've taken that one even faster". I sure don't feel like it's safe telling him the same thing in his Z because it quickly feels like the car's at its limits.

The smoothness of a rotary and the wide linear powerband, combined with the 50/50 weight distribution, makes for a car that has very few peers out there when it comes to pure driving emotion and feeling. After driving mine as a daily for almost 4 years, I can't imagine having to drive any other car again as a daily.

I also live in the most rainy city in the entire U.S.; it rains here literally every single day. And I don't really drive my car that much slower than I do on a dry day, because I don't need to. I can still take curves and turns at speeds in full on rain that would have a lot of other cars kissing the guardrails. However, I do also have Goodyear Eagle F1 GSD3s as my tires; combined with the car's balance, wet handling is just as effortless as dry handling. And dry handling is just very, very sick.

Let's talk reliability. Aside from squealing brakes and an engine that'll hard start if you don't know the trick around it, I really haven't had a single major issue with my RX-8 to date. The oil consumption is COMPLETELY overrated; and even if it did eat oil, so what? Is it really so hard to check on the oil level yourself? And oil is dirt cheap. On average I only need to check and add oil every two months, once I realized the car hardly eats any oil at all!

I'm careful how I drive my car, but neither do I baby it. Babying a rotary is one of the worst things you could do to it. Because it runs so fuel rich, if you don't bring up the RPMs and combustion chamber heat often, you'll quickly end up with carbon build up that WILL kill the rotor's apex seals down the line. The rotary is not like a piston engine at all; you WANT to drive it at high RPMs often. This is one of the best parts of owning a naturally aspirated rotary; guilt free high RPMs. I regularly hit 6000 RPMs and more a few times every drive.

Now let's talk lifestyle. On my first year of ownership, I regularly saw 14 MPG. Now I'm regularly getting 15-16 MPG. My friend with the 350z regularly gets 13 MPG. With the cars you're looking at, I think any gas mileage consideration should just go out the window. Bottom line, you gotta pay to play.

Because the rotary is so dependant on engine oil to be able to function properly, it's VERY important to get the oil changed on a consistent, timely basis. Other than that, all other maintenance has been no different than any other car.

Insurance absolutely rules for the RX-8, because 1. with my insurance company, it's classified as a "four door sedan" (har har) and 2. it's "only" got a 1.3 liter engine that couldn't possibly make any dangerously fast power (har har again).

As for everyday ride quality, I'm more than happy with it. As long as you don't attempt any pothole ridden roads, because then it will hurt. The suspension is stiffer than average I would say; I certainly feel bumps much harder than I do in my friend's 350z, and we're both on stock suspensions.

And as far as I'm concerned, it's one of the most beautifully styled cars made; it constantly amazes me to no end when I see my car every morning in the garage that I got such an exotically styled car for under $30k.

In any event, go find one and drive one. I've always loved Mazda for keeping the rotary alive; it's an engine that just personifies the spirit of driving for fun. And I completely love my RX-8, it's soooooo ridiculously fun to drive. There's never a boring moment in it.



Quote:

Originally Posted by catscratch /img/forum/go_quote.gif I like responsiveness and driver involvement more than anything else, really. The car needs to communicate, and driving it needs to feel like a dynamic process rather than just turning some knobs and watching the scenery go by. I do put more priority on handling than straight-line speed. Power off the line isn't that important to me, but rolling power in the 40-120mph range IS pretty important, and so is being able to put power down effectively out of a turn. So, things like front wheel drive, live rear axles, and poor weight distribution are definitely a big no. High top speed helps as well since it translates into being able to comfortably cruise at triple-digit speeds all day long. I also do want a lot of stability at the limit as well as past the limit. I do a lot of stupid stuff, and having a car that tries to kill me every time I take liberties with it is not going to end well. I'm not a bad driver per se, but I am completely inexperienced when it comes to track driving and handling the car at the limit, so something that's twitchy and unpredictable is not what I'm looking for. For that matter, crash safety is also pretty important, and that's my main concern with the S2000 and other smaller, lighter cars. I would trade some of that light weight and tossability for stability and control at the limit. I don't have much of an engine preference as long as it gets the job done. But, a nasty engine note will drive me up the wall in the long run. I don't really have an engine note preference save for a fondness for Honda VTEC engines. The V6 in the CL is definitely one of the better-sounding V6s I've heard, especially once it's in VTEC range. In terms of daily livability, I'm pretty flexible. It has to be reliable, but fuel economy isn't important as long as it's not completely terrible, and seeing that I'm over 25 and have clean records, insurance shouldn't be through the roof even on dedicated sports cars (though of course the records won't stay clean for long if I get something flashy). I do need good all-weather handling; snow is pretty rare here but rain is very frequent and weather changes rapidly and unpredictably. Seating capacity and luggage capacity are not necessities, but they are a nice bonus. I tend to go on a lot of long-distance road trips, and it would be nice to be able to use my car for the purpose every once in a while. Based on all that, I now think that the STI or an Evo would be ideal for me, but it will be hard to find one in the price range. If I decide to not step it down and settle for something else, I will probably end up waiting for a year or so until STI prices drop, or until my financial situation changes. Or, maybe I'll get lucky and get a good deal on one. In any case, I do have a lot to think about, and I very much do appreciate the advice and ownership experience.

 

[catscratch]

Wow, superb write-up. I will definitely try it out, together with everything else on my list.