Soundcards... again.
Nov 24, 2002 at 7:04 AM Thread Starter Post #1 of 56

TheHappyHippo

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Hi all,

I need a new soundcard, so I can get rid of that SB Live! I have. Some of you people have mentionned the TB Santa Cruz, and I must admit that after reading a few reviews, I'm convinced, this card must sound way better than the SBLive! That said, I've done some thinking about this, and I'd like to know what are the other alternatives for a real good soundcard ? After all, why pay 70$ for some improvement, when you can wait a little and spend 300$ for some major ameliorations... hehehe.
wink.gif


I do some gaming, but I mostly listen to (properly encoded) mp3s. I also sometimes use my computer for music creation, so MIDI in/out are needed. I use Win2K Pro, and I'm not willing to change that.

The card will be used to hook my Cambridge Soundwork FPS2000 speakers and my Grados SR60 headphones. I plan to upgrade both the speakers and the headphones someday... but I really do want to get a better source for now.

I've been looking around a bit, and it seems Terratec's products might be a good choice. But then again...which one ? I do like the idea of getting a card with a 5 1/4 bay with tons of jacks... but it's not the most important thing. What I want is a great card with great sound.

Can anyone post some suggestions for soundcards...along with their approx. prices (I don't care if it cost 2000$... I just want to know, what's good and what's not...and how much money will I have to pack to get it). That would be much appreciated.

Thanks a lot for sharing your knowledge.
smily_headphones1.gif
 
Nov 24, 2002 at 9:42 AM Post #2 of 56
The Terratec is a fine choice - they also offer the 6fire LT, which is the same card minus the internal bay, and about half the cost.

I'd wait and and see what M-Audio has up its sleeve in the 24/192 Revolution. This non-AC97 card utilizes the Sensaura engine, so expect its performance with games to be good to say the least. Should blow the Un-Creative Audigy2 out of the water.
 
Nov 24, 2002 at 4:47 PM Post #3 of 56
I have the Terratec EWX24/96 (about $170) and it sucks in comparison to just about ANY CD player on the market. There is a LOT of noise, which is very noticable especially in low-impedance headphones, the sound is muffled, distant, and undetailed.
 
Nov 24, 2002 at 5:01 PM Post #4 of 56
Yeah, antness; don't expect a $200 soundcard to sound as good as a $200 portable or home CD player. If you want a soundcard to sound as good as even a mediocre CDP, you'll have to spend twice that much.
 
Nov 25, 2002 at 7:42 AM Post #5 of 56
Hi again.

I don't want to be a jackass, but this is not helping me... I don't want to know what soundcards will sound worst than most CD player, i want to know what soundcard will sound better than my actual ****ty setup (SB Live + Grado SR-60). Hehe.

Since I work day and night in front of my computer, I really prefer to have all my albums properly encoded and be able to browse mp3s, instead of dealing with tons of cd cases on my desk...

Here's what I've heard so far...

- SB Live! sucks.
- Audigy sucks.
- Santa Cruz is great for the price.
- Audigy 2... hell I don't know, so far, some say its good, some say it still sucks.
- Terratec... same, heard it was good... and heard it wasn't.
- Heard about stuff from M-Audio, but I also heard gaming wasn't really well supported...
- Also heard about some good stuff from Phillips...but never had any comments...

Browsing the Terratec's website lately, I saw that they had a brand new (I think) line of soundcards... (Aureon Fun, Sky and Space) Anyone has any comments on that ?

Let's put it this way. Put yourself in my position. So far, all you have is a Sb Live! and a pair of SR-60. You bought those 6 months ago, and you are still amazed about the sound coming out of these little things (yup, compared to what I had before, this setup sounds pretty cool...)... Now, knowing the SB Live! isn't very good, you need a new, excelent soundcard. What's your choice ?

Thanks a lot people.
 
Nov 25, 2002 at 9:26 AM Post #6 of 56
if you want a quality upgrade from your sblive. I dare say ANY of your above choices will give you quite a "bang".

BUT I'd say skip the audigy2. get an m-audio revolution, or a teratec. these are true 24/92 cards. the audigy2 resamples everything to 48khz internally..it doesn't sound too bad, but any resampling's "impure"
tongue.gif
 
Nov 25, 2002 at 9:27 AM Post #7 of 56
Quote:

Originally posted by TheHappyHippo
Hi again.

I don't want to be a jackass, but this is not helping me... I don't want to know what soundcards will sound worst than most CD player, i want to know what soundcard will sound better than my actual ****ty setup (SB Live + Grado SR-60). Hehe.

Since I work day and night in front of my computer, I really prefer to have all my albums properly encoded and be able to browse mp3s, instead of dealing with tons of cd cases on my desk...

Here's what I've heard so far...

- SB Live! sucks.
- Audigy sucks.
- Santa Cruz is great for the price.
- Audigy 2... hell I don't know, so far, some say its good, some say it still sucks.
- Terratec... same, heard it was good... and heard it wasn't.
- Heard about stuff from M-Audio, but I also heard gaming wasn't really well supported...
- Also heard about some good stuff from Phillips...but never had any comments...

Browsing the Terratec's website lately, I saw that they had a brand new (I think) line of soundcards... (Aureon Fun, Sky and Space) Anyone has any comments on that ?

Let's put it this way. Put yourself in my position. So far, all you have is a Sb Live! and a pair of SR-60. You bought those 6 months ago, and you are still amazed about the sound coming out of these little things (yup, compared to what I had before, this setup sounds pretty cool...)... Now, knowing the SB Live! isn't very good, you need a new, excelent soundcard. What's your choice ?

Thanks a lot people.


Get the M-Audio 2496. For those saying a $200-$300 cannot beat a dedicated $200-$300 CD player I beg to differ. My personal experience says it is equal if not better than those players. This provided you can get the noise inside the PC to an acceptable level. As for games I don't need EAX or what have you. If you can live with 2 channels then I don't see a problem. Played Medal of Honour and the in-game effects was terrific.

Hope this helps.
 
Nov 25, 2002 at 1:36 PM Post #8 of 56
Quote:

Originally posted by ablaze
BUT I'd say skip the audigy2. get an m-audio revolution, or a teratec. these are true 24/92 cards. the audigy2 resamples everything to 48khz internally..it doesn't sound too bad, but any resampling's "impure"
tongue.gif


Well, what you said about the Audigy2 is only half-true. It resamples 16-bit/44.1kHz digital audio to 48kHz - and still using a sucky alogarithm (in this case, with a relatively high IMD that is clearly audible in the increased hiss when regular audio CDs are being played - and that hiss varies with the audio being produced). The Audigy2 doesn't resample 24/96 or 24/192 sound. It's the original Audigy that resamples everything to 16-bit/48kHz internally. Unfortunately, most consumer soundcards also resample 44.1kHz audio to 48kHz - but most use a less sucky alogarithm than what Creative uses.

And I'll consider an M-Audio 24/96 for my backup 700MHz PIII desktop (that's now sitting unused) - but then I'll be using that slower PC strictly as a multitrack audio recorder/mixer (or for converting my old vinyl LPs to digital). I will then need to buy good audio-editing/mixing software in this case (as the software that comes with professional soundcards tends to be rudimentary). I would also slap in a 60GB or 80GB hard drive, a rudimentary graphics card (I don't need a Radeon 9700 Pro or a GeForce 4 Ti card in that computer - a Radeon 7500 or a GeForce 4 MX 440 will suffice if I won't be gaming much with that PC), a good-quality CD burner, and either Windows 2000 or Windows XP Pro (I already have 256MB of RAM on that PC) - and I'll be set.
 
Nov 28, 2002 at 2:20 AM Post #9 of 56
I have two soundcards in my comp atm. aureal sq1500 and a sblive.

I despise my sblive. It sucks compared to the aureal cards... Sucks that creative bought them out or we would have awesome consumer level audio cards. I've used the kxproject drivers which helped a bunch by setting default output to higher quality i2s codec rear outputs. but this card hisses (very noticeable) when nothing plays.

but from a sound quality soundpoint just about anything non creative is gonna sound great. I haven't had any experience first hand with the santa cruz myself but have only heard good reviews for santa cruz's. I'd recomend the Aureal line of cards. They are extremely cheap under $10 on ebay and have excellent output. The only downer is that they have no support because the company is gone.

I use the digital out on my card at 48kHz (highest it'll go) and I'm waiting for the m audio revolution to come out. high quality basic sound card with digital out at consumer lvl prices. I want to feed 96kHz to my art di/o.
 
Nov 28, 2002 at 3:33 AM Post #10 of 56
Quote:

Originally posted by XzeroR3
I use the digital out on my card at 48kHz (highest it'll go) and I'm waiting for the m audio revolution to come out. high quality basic sound card with digital out at consumer lvl prices. I want to feed 96kHz to my art di/o.


The DI/O is RCA. Does't the revolution only have optical out?


I would also wait for the MAudio revolution if you want gaming , quality, and real 24/96.
 
Nov 28, 2002 at 3:08 PM Post #13 of 56
Quote:

Originally posted by XzeroR3
http://www.m-audio.net/products/consumer/index.php

I see a digital coax spdif connector (whatever its called) on it.


Ah yes. I am mistaken then. Must've been dreaming of something else
tongue.gif


I currently use the Audiophile 24/96 because it has a separate transceiver chip which is supposed to help digital out.

ablaze, my ART DI/O output is better than my analogue out from Audiophile 24/96 but that maybe because my interconnects from DI/O to amp was better. The DAC would be outside the noisy computer if you used the DI/O and you could also upgrade it to further increase the difference.
 
Nov 28, 2002 at 3:24 PM Post #14 of 56
Hi Ian, you're the perfect guy to offer some advice!
biggrin.gif

do you hear noise with the amp directly connected to the audiophile? crackling/pops/static/hiss etc? and if so..does the ART di/o really eliminate that?

ok. rephrase. HOW does the sound from the ART differ from the sound straight from the soundcard?
smily_headphones1.gif
thanks in advance Ian!
 
Nov 28, 2002 at 3:36 PM Post #15 of 56
Here's a reply I wrote for the Auditory list, although not directly answering your question, I think it is of relevance here.

If you have a budget up to $100 USD, then I recommend the upcoming M-Audio Revolution at c. $99 USD street price. Very nice measurements.

--- begin copy & paste ---

My experience (some gathered from my colleagues, most based
on my personal experimentation) is as follows:

PC HARDWARE ASSUMPTION
======================
I assume you are running this on PC hardware (either W32 or *nix
platform). I don't which sound cards have full and robust Linux
support, so you may not be able to use all of these on Linux. However,
all of the below limitations are hardware based and cannot be circumvented by moving from Win32 platform to *nix based

CREATIVE SOUND CARDS
====================
All Creative cards up to and including Audigy 2 are based on the PC
AC97 component specification. This mandates an internal mixer at 48 kHz and 16 bits. In theory this means resampling of most audio data (44.1 kHz, unless you use DAT at 48 kHz exclusively). This resampling is especially poorly done on creative hardware, resulting in sharp drop of high frequncies and in some cases, bad intermodulation distortion.

Pre-Audigy models are especially bad in their frequency response and
will have problems on most non-Intel motherboards, due to PCI latency
problems. In practise this will results in sound that stutters or
'crackles' while other PCI devices are used (high disk activity, network
activity or even video card activity).

You maybe able to circumvent stuttering/crackling playback by adjusting
the individual PCI latencies of each PCI device (Linux has a tool called
'setpci' and W32 has a software called PowerStrip, which is shareware).

You may encounter this same problem (albeit to a lower degree) with
other sound cards as well, especially on non-Intel chipset motherboards.
And no, this is not pro-Intel propaganda as I run Via/nVidia/AMD chipset
motherboards myself. It's just based on experience and is common
knowledge among sound card users.

If you use sampling rate of 48 kHz exclusively then Audigy and Audigy 2
are ok. If you use 96 kHz exlusively, then Audigy 2 is ok.

AC97 RESAMPLING SOUND CARDS
===========================

Of the very cheap ones that still resample to the AC97 specification
at 48Khz (with associated THD, S/N, IMD problems, but less so than
others):

- Videologic Sonic Fury, c. £40 GBP (aka TB Sante Cruz in the USA)

If you want to try and get along with a cheap sound card, you should
consider doing the resampling inside your computer software and not
inside the hardware of the soundcard. In fact, you can get pretty
decent results even with resampling, if it's done in software and
properly.

If youre sound sources are AIFF/PCM/WAV, then you can use a common free software like Winamp to play back the files using the Resampling output plugin. This will in fact greatly improve the performance of many
resampling soundcards by doing the resampling much more accurately in
software.

You can find this plugin for Winamp version 2 and version 2 only at:

http://www.blorp.com/~peter/zips/out_wave.zip

Virus free and fully working as I've tested it on 27th of Nov 2002.

Please be aware that some cards resample even the 48 kHz input and induce a lot of jitter in the process, resulting in less than stellar results at analog outputs.

NON-RESAMPLING SOUND CARDS
==========================

If you want to avoid resampling (and associated IMD, aliasing,
amplitude response and other problems) altogether, you need a sound card that can pass through bit perfect data at the sampling rate of your
choice.

The cheapest ones that I know of currently are:

- CMI 8738 based cards (e.g. Ennyah DigiSound 8738). Does not resample 44.1 or 48 kHz to it's analog outputs. However, the analog section is limited to 65 dbA snr max and as such may not be enough for your use. I haven't tested one myself, so I cannot vouch for it's perceived performance (esp. in psychoacoustic use). Recommendations from others say that it should be enough for 'casual use' whatever that is. Cheap at c. £10.

- Zoltrix Nightingale. Doesn't resample, but I hear the analog stage is
really bad, so I cannot recommend this as I haven't tested it.
Inexpensive at £30. Only 44.1kHz playback!

The cheapest RELIABLE ones (drivers, analog stage, actual perceived
performance) that I know of are:

- Midiman DIO 2448. The cheapest sound card I have been able to find
that doesn't come with horrible resampling artifacts and is otherwise
decent. Works on Macs too. Cost c. £100.

- M-Audio Audiophile 2496, street price c. £150

- M-Audio Revolution (coming out in Dec). Really nice measurements in
the prototype card, even good enough for serious work. Street price c.
$99.

I know, not very cheap. However, that's the minimum you have to pay
for good sound quality for an add on PCI sound card.

ONES TO AVOID
=============
5) THe ones to avoid:

- If flat frequency response and/or continues playback without noises +
low IMD matter, then I'd rule out all Creative cards, unless your
source is at 48kHz/96kHz, in which case Audigy/Audigy2 might do the
trick.

- Most integrated AC97 sound cards like C-Media types (IMD can rise up
really high) and nForce. Bad resampling artifacts, average dynamic range
and lots of tendency to hiss. I would rule this out completely

- Most obscure stuff (Avance, Ennyah, Hi-Val) you can't get measurements
for or for which no reliable user reviews exist.

- FM801 based sound cards (Terratec 512, 128, several others). In theory
can pass data through without resampling, but no drivers actually use
this. Performance is greatly compromised in current known drivers.

HEADPHONE MATCHING
==================

Be also aware that if you are going to plug your headphones straight
into the amplified output of the soundcard, you may run into impedance
matching issues. In general this can mean up to +10 dB accentuated bass
and highs, increased perceivable background noise and loss of dynamics
(i.e. not enough power to drive headphones that have too high impedance or are not efficient enough). This is very much dependent on the headphone of course. Beyerdynamic models tend to like higher output impedance (120 Ohm), but need more power to be driven without
problems.

Sennheisers, Sonys and Grados should be *in general* (applies to most models I know) driven from near zero impedance outputs. Higher output will change the perceived tonal characteristics of the phone (i.e. amplitude response).

If you want a headphone that is almost immune to output impedance
changes, then AKG 240M is a decent choice. However, it is neither
very inexpensive nor easy to amplify (i.e sound cards cannot
drive it on their own).

In theory you should drive for near zero ohm OUTPUT impedance at the
sound card output. The problem is that none of the sound card makers
give out their headphone output impedance ratings. Even a 30 Ohm
difference can result in clearly audible increase in distortion,
depending on the headphone of course.


IN THE END
==========

If you don't have budget for c. $99USD cards, then I suggest getting the
Videlogic Sonic Fury and trying to use the resampling in software
(Winamp plugin if your source are files in AIFF/PCM/WAV).

That's the cheapest, decent quality, decently reliable and moderate
amount of tweaking combination I know of.


You can find somewhat old, but often useful measurements for many
soundcards at:
http://www.pcavtech.com/soundcards/compare/index.htm

More results can be found at:
http://audio.rightmark.org/results.html

Be aware that the above measurements may not tell you everything you may need
to know about analog circuit noise immunity and performance under
varying conditions.

Street prices of many common sound cards in UK
http://uk.pricerunner.com/computing/...ndcards/browse

--- end copy & paste ---
 

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