[Exacoustatowner]

Firmly tongue-in-cheek. But it has affected my listening. I spend WAY too much time testing!
 
 
I spend an inordinate amount of time A/bing 1 second snippets dozens of times trying to hear if I PERCEIVE any difference between two different headphone amps-one solid state one hybrid. I do PERCEIVE a difference-with prolonged A/Bing-with level matching-and deliberately making first one-then the other slightly louder. I have a preference for some music with one vs. the other. 
And I no longer TRUST my own impressions during "tube rolling" episodes.
 
I CAN say some tubes sound better-but the subtle differences between various high end and highly coveted tubes-I no longer trust my own ears since it takes several minutes to swap them out-(cool down and warm up). Audio memory is short.
 
The best I could do was try them out on the same challenging snippets of my most sonically challenging recording- Mahler's Eighth with MTT and SFO. There are several places with massed female chorus and several sopranos, violins, brass, and high notes on a huge Pipe Organ that make me wince-except through the Ragnarok and my Lyr with my best tubes. 

 

[castleofargh]

 it's more about learning than science IMO. and it's not restricted to audio.
when you learn about something "better" or about how it's done, when you next stumble upon that something, your added knowledge will now affect the way you perceive it. and then it cannot be unseen. so of course the experience is now different.
 
the guy who plays an instrument cannot help but notice when someone messed up with that instrument on a show. the guy who's a cuisine chef can't help but analyze how the food was made and be unhappy when it's sub par(for his own elevated standard, because most likely an animal or a kid wouldn't care at all. or might even prefer the "lesser" product).
I felt that hitting me hard with photography and drawing. with no knowledge and little tools I had a vivid imagination and wished I had the technique to do all the crazy cool stuff when I was a kid. but with time and work, I learned those techniques. and it became clear that some of the stuff that had amazed me, were noob stuff from an expert's perspective. now when I see some overused HDR, facepalm is what comes to me. but 15years ago I would have been so jealous and impressed. ^_^ is that less joy? I don't think so, I just stepped up and now have new aspirations.
nowadays what impresses me, is much more subtle, and the pictures or paintings that I find amazing, most people wouldn't care about them and would call them pale or boring(like with neutral sound in some ways).
to me from what you describe you're just learning ^_^. you might be in the full OCD phase of that turning point, but it will pass once you have your answers. (or so says the guy who bought an ADC a microphone and more resistors this month for no other reason than testing... )

 
 
 
to me it has become like another hobby unrelated to music. so I can't say that I enjoy less the music, I really just have found another hobby.

 

[Exacoustatowner]

   it's more about learning than science IMO. and it's not restricted to audio.
when you learn about something "better" or about how it's done, when you next stumble upon that something, your added knowledge will now affect the way you perceive it. and then it cannot be unseen. so of course the experience is now different.
 
the guy who plays an instrument cannot help but notice when someone messed up with that instrument on a show. the guy who's a cuisine chef can't help but analyze how the food was made and be unhappy when it's sub par(for his own elevated standard, because most likely an animal or a kid wouldn't care at all. or might even prefer the "lesser" product).
I felt that hitting me hard with photography and drawing. with no knowledge and little tools I had a vivid imagination and wished I had the technique to do all the crazy cool stuff when I was a kid. but with time and work, I learned those techniques. and it became clear that some of the stuff that had amazed me, were noob stuff from an expert's perspective. now when I see some overused HDR, facepalm is what comes to me. but 15years ago I would have been so jealous and impressed. ^_^ is that less joy? I don't think so, I just stepped up and now have new aspirations.
nowadays what impresses me, is much more subtle, and the pictures or paintings that I find amazing, most people wouldn't care about them and would call them pale or boring(like with neutral sound in some ways).
to me from what you describe you're just learning ^_^. you might be in the full OCD phase of that turning point, but it will pass once you have your answers. (or so says the guy who bought an ADC a microphone and more resistors this month for no other reason than testing... )

 
 
 
to me it has become like another hobby unrelated to music. so I can't say that I enjoy less the music, I really just have found another hobby.

Well said! Perhaps there IS hope for me. And BTW: I enjoy overusing HDR! Oooooh pretty colors….

 

[jcx]

part rolling is insidious because of the psychoacoustic confounders of delay and sighted listening (even level matching with some tube circuits, varying tube parameters) - but with the appearance of being a "fair" test to those who haven't read up on human sensory testing
 
the "scientific" method really requires multiple amps of the same model - likely even modded for production tolerances to match to 0.1% amplitude over frequency, load variations - like "blueprinting" car engines
 
you also need a blinded switching method
 
then the parts being compared can be running all the time in both amps
 
 
much cheaper, if you accept modern digital audio likely exceed human hearing limits by adequate margins, you could roll the parts in a single amp while digitally recording the outputs and compare the playback in a ABX software like
foobar ABX plugin
 
still lots to learn, debug setup, wiring, interference, hum to make clean recordings with good "prosumer" soundcard or better

 

[arnyk]

  part rolling is insidious because of the psychoacoustic confounders of delay and sighted listening (even level matching with some tube circuits, varying tube parameters) - but with the appearance of being a "fair" test to those who haven't read up on human sensory testing
 
the "scientific" method really requires multiple amps of the same model - likely even modded for production tolerances to match to 0.1% amplitude over frequency, load variations - like "blueprinting" car engines
 
you also need a blinded switching method
 
then the parts being compared can be running all the time in both amps
 
 
much cheaper, if you accept modern digital audio likely exceed human hearing limits by adequate margins, you could roll the parts in a single amp while digitally recording the outputs and compare the playback in a ABX software like
foobar ABX plugin
 
still lots to learn, debug setup, wiring, interference, hum to make clean recordings with good "prosumer" soundcard or better

 
Most audio gear has poorer performance than the best ADCs  e.g. AKM AK5397 (typically better than spec) so scientifically speaking it is reasonable to compare hi rez recordings of proposed hardware configurations as opposed to the live circuits. This means you can build the circuit one way, record it, rebuilt it some other way, record it, and then use software such as FOOBAR2K with the ABX plug in to compare the two level-matched, time-synched recordings.
 
When we did this we found that the results of the comparison of recordings was the same as the results of the comparison of the live circuits and they were both "no differences".
 
About 99% of all parts rolling is evaluated only by means of Casual Audiophile Listening Evaluations which are generally false.
 
The basic idea of most parts rolling is questionable just on the face of it - the idea that most production audio gear is so hopelessly poorly designed by accident or due to unconstrained cost constraints, that any completely unlettered amateur who just learned how to solder, guided by full color pictures, can make substantial improvements on it. 

 

[Exacoustatowner]

part rolling is insidious because of the psychoacoustic confounders of delay and sighted listening (even level matching with some tube circuits, varying tube parameters) - but with the appearance of being a "fair" test to those who haven't read up on human sensory testing

the "scientific" method really requires multiple amps of the same model - likely even modded for production tolerances to match to 0.1% amplitude over frequency, load variations - like "blueprinting" car engines

you also need a blinded switching method

then the parts being compared can be running all the time in both amps


much cheaper, if you accept modern digital audio likely exceed human hearing limits by adequate margins, you could roll the parts in a single amp while digitally recording the outputs and compare the playback in a ABX software like
foobar ABX plugin

still lots to learn, debug setup, wiring, interference, hum to make clean recordings with good "prosumer" soundcard or better

Excellent ideas and comments. But somehow I can't justify buying multiple Ragnarok's and Lyr's! .
At best I can decide if I like A or B better, I.E. Ragnarok solid state or Lyr hybrid with Tubes X. Once I get past a certain tube quality the differences are too subtle for me to trust my magical hearing. Luckily I have a lifetime supply of really good tubes! My Ragnarok SS really pleases me in all the properties I look for. My previous SS amps did not thus setting off a mad dash to get high quality tubes.
I succumbed a few weeks ago for some Valvo Cca NOS 1960's tubes. They do sound good. But have exaggerated bass output- not subtle! I prefer my EQ for that btw!

 

[Exacoustatowner]

Most audio gear has poorer performance than the best ADCs  e.g. AKM AK5397 (typically better than spec) so scientifically speaking it is reasonable to compare hi rez recordings of proposed hardware configurations as opposed to the live circuits. This means you can build the circuit one way, record it, rebuilt it some other way, record it, and then use software such as FOOBAR2K with the ABX plug in to compare the two level-matched, time-synched recordings.

When we did this we found that the results of the comparison of recordings was the same as the results of the comparison of the live circuits and they were both "no differences".

About 99% of all parts rolling is evaluated only by means of Casual Audiophile Listening Evaluations which are generally false.

The basic idea of most parts rolling is questionable just on the face of it - the idea that most production audio gear is so hopelessly poorly designed by accident or due to unconstrained cost constraints, that any completely unlettered amateur who just learned how to solder, guided by full color pictures, can make substantial improvements on it. 

That's why I stick to rolling various magical rituals to clean the audio demons from my audio equipment. Caps rolling is for amateurs!

 

[icebear]

I am sure matching crucial parts perfectly yields more improvement than any rolling of any part.
 
E.g. Justin's GSX-Mk2.
I am not sure how many other manufacturers are going through such a meticulous selection to match 4 transistors for such a fully balanced design.
I just know it sounds darn gorgeous to my old ears and I'm not rolling anything

.

 

[arnyk]

  I am sure matching crucial parts perfectly yields more improvement than any rolling of any part.
 
 

 
Well designed circuits can be very accurate and have outstanding audible and measured performance with zero parts matching.
 
Quote:

E.g. Justin's GSX-Mk2.
I am not sure how many other manufacturers are going through such a meticulous selection to match 4 transistors for such a fully balanced design.
I just know it sounds darn gorgeous to my old ears and I'm not rolling anything

.

 

 
Most professional designers don't match parts by hand. They design circuits that work well with just about any reasonable off-the-shelf part.  The basic principles behind this have been known and exploited in manufacturing since before the Civil War.  You might want to read up on Eli Whitney and Interchangeable parts.

 

[Exacoustatowner]

Off topic- there is a discussion of power cable, fuses, and outlets on the Mjolnir thread. I had to sit on my hands to keep myself from asking if they re wired their house and the transmission lines back to the power station. I'm guessing it's best to do something else for awhile to keep harmony? my comments won't do any good so I should keep silent! Not easy!

 

[icebear]

   
Most professional designers don't match parts by hand. They design circuits that work well with just about any reasonable off-the-shelf part.  The basic principles behind this have been known and exploited in manufacturing since before the Civil War.  You might want to read up on Eli Whitney and Interchangeable parts.

Yes, that might be true and I would certainly replace professional by commercial.

Certain circuit designs which -to me- are semi-commercial (aka small scale custom made) can obviously be pushed to great performance when you are meticulous enough with your parts selection.
 
And a second yes for Eli Whitney, very interesting ...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interchangeable_parts
quote: [Interchangeable parts are parts (components) that are, for practical purposes, identical. They are made to specifications that ensure that they are so nearly identical that they will fit into any assembly of the same type. One such part can freely replace another, without any custom fitting (such as filing). This interchangeability allows easy assembly of new devices, and easier repair of existing devices, while minimizing both the time and skill required of the person doing the assembly or repair. ] unquote
 
LOL and this is the exact opposite of Justin building most if the amp himself.

 

[davidsh]

Yes, tolerances and interchangeability is an interesting subject indeed!

 

[MikuLover]

Off topic- there is a discussion of power cable, fuses, and outlets on the Mjolnir thread. I had to sit on my hands to keep myself from asking if they re wired their house and the transmission lines back to the power station. I'm guessing it's best to do something else for awhile to keep harmony? my comments won't do any good so I should keep silent! Not easy!

All they need to do is get some steinmusic epads to stick onto their speakers that is placed on a very expensive shelf, install a firewall module and a ps audio noise harvester, use sliver superkord-500 II as a mains cable, use galileo system speaker cable made from copper, sliver, gold and platinum. Use a disc demagnetizer for their cds, audio desk for vinyl, replace all fuses with audiophile grade fuses, wear a hat made from aluminium foil to clear your head of electrical smog, drink snake oil to achieve audio nirvana.
PROBLEM SOLVED! 

 

 

[Exacoustatowner]

  All they need to do is get some steinmusic epads to stick onto their speakers that is placed on a very expensive shelf, install a firewall module and a ps audio noise harvester, use sliver superkord-500 II as a mains cable, use galileo system speaker cable made from copper, sliver, gold and platinum. Use a disc demagnetizer for their cds, audio desk for vinyl, replace all fuses with audiophile grade fuses, wear a hat made from aluminium foil to clear your head of electrical smog, drink snake oil to achieve audio nirvana.
PROBLEM SOLVED! 

 

You forgot the WA Quantum Chips and Magical Incantations. I finally realized it was the incantations I was not considering-silly me!

 

[MikuLover]

  You forgot the WA Quantum Chips and Magical Incantations. I finally realized it was the incantations I was not considering-silly me!

There's still magical stones and fairy dust
 
Well long story short, I just feel that certain people are making people like us look like fools by marketing and selling 'revolutionary' audio items at 10x-100x the price of the original components.
I personally enjoy my music a lot, do I do blind test? Yes, Tried out a cheap-ass interconnect that is like 1 buck and another cable which was a hundred, did I hear a difference? Yes, just that god darned one instrument in 1 second in one song that made the difference for me of being more noticeable. Was it worth it? I don't know. I just feel that there needs to be a limit to how ridiculously priced things are.