[AnotherLevel]

aptX alone doesn't have lower latency than other codecs, it's only aptX LL that does on a consistent basis. With other codecs it's 100% dependent on the actual implementation between source and output.

SBC isn't necessarily inferior to aptX, it again depends on implementation. At the codec level aptX is actually inferior in some areas (noise floor at higher frequencies for example), but codecs aren't as important as exactly how audio over bluetooth is implemented both on the emitting device and on the receiving one. I've made some headphones fail some routine tests that I usually perform regardless of the codec the employed or the source used.

You can have an illustration here on how the same codec (AAC) implementation can vary, at least as far as the source is concerned, from total rubbish to possibly what currently is overall the best audio over bluetooth implementation we have at the moment : https://www.soundguys.com/the-ultimate-guide-to-bluetooth-headphones-aac-20296/

With your Mac, even though it might be deprecated soon, you can still use the Bluetooth Explorer app (you can get it via a free Apple's developer registration by downloading Xcode tools) to set SBC up so that only its higher quality settings are used.

Thank you so much for the information. I actually just found the Bluetooth Explorer app after making my comment last night!

 

[GrussGott]

Apologies if this is a repost, but this guy does a FANTASTIC job of diving through the M4's sound overall and each profile with his measurements - if you're looking to understand all the factors that go into the Sony M4's sound, and how you can adjust it for yourself and/or if the M4 is right for you, this is the video to watch:



Examples of his measurements - which he walks through in detail! - and links to more info about them:

 

[GrussGott]

Hi guys, I'm not fully understanding the difference in quality between codecs.

SoundGuys has a great write up here and h/t to them for this:

Much much more in the link - check it out, hope it helps!

 

[SparkOnShore]

Apologies if this is a repost, but this guy does a FANTASTIC job of diving through the M4's sound overall and each profile with his measurements - if you're looking to understand all the factors that go into the Sony M4's sound, and how you can adjust it for yourself and/or if the M4 is right for you, this is the video to watch:



Examples of his measurements - which he walks through in detail! - and links to more info about them:

This is the FR of the Sony xm4 from soundguys.com. Which one is valid, the soundguys’ one or the one you present from headphones.com? Because these two FRs are completely different! What I personally hear on iPhone with AAC is certainly the one of soundguys.com. This is a rather balanced sound, one I really really like! Is this system of FR measurements bearing any reliability anymore? How is it possible to give so different results? Is this also relevant and subjective, as everything else in sound? If so, why to write and present the FR as a sound evidence when it’s clearly not? Thank you all in this thread!

 

[SparkOnShore]

Also, if the difference is raw vs compensated, why use raw?
Pasting below the post of another member here:

RAW: actual sound level measured at microphone.

COMPENSATED: response is adjusted via mathematical “HRTF” (Head related transfer function). There’s articles on Innerfidelity about different types of HRTF compensations and why it’s used in measurements.

“Frequency Response” The result from the HRTF “compensated” result is smoothed out with a smoothing function in an attempt to make the graph easier to read.

I just focus on the Compensated result. the smoothed version obscures too many details for me, personally. Headroom and Innerfidelity always use HRTF so the raw response is typically not what is compared around the sites or here when posters refer to measurement results. So just focus on Compensated, imo

 

[GrussGott]

How is it possible to give so different results?

Ha, not to get in to the whole subjectivist vs objectivist thing but many of us believe most audio testing is for ballparking at best and there are many qualities that can't or don't show up in tests. For example, if you're walking down the street and hear guitar music through a window - you immediately know if it's someone playing the guitar live vs a recording. Why? What's the test that proves that? Yet you don't need a test because you just know.

Anyway, beyond all that, best thing to do is to read up on how testing works, understand equipment differences, setup differences, etc then the curves all make more sense.

This is a good video from the same people:


Ultimately for me these curves are like movie reviews: once you get to know a particular reviewer's preferences then their reviews become more valuable.

 

[Adnen Ayed]

Yeah, I think the M4s sound great - i've resisted getting a pair of wireless noise-cancelling as there are better sounding non-ANC options with decent passive noise isolation so why deal with the crappy sound? Well for the M4s, they're the first ANC that cross the bar for me. Here's a mini-review:

* Need to have useful-to-me ANC

- For me Bose ANC, Sony wh1kM1-M3 and others just don't eliminate the sounds I care about and ultimately all of them were returned​

- The M4s finally have fixed the ANC problem with much higher performance in high frequency ANC​

- h/t to soundguys for great visuals on passive isolation and ANC versus frequency:​

​

* Must sound decent

- Bose have always sounded like garbage to me *and* are hard to adjust​

- The M4s start with a fairly flat response:​

- And the M4s, of course, have the Sony app that comes with an EQ which, with about 10 min of work, allows you to dial it in or at least worked for me​

- One note about the sound: codecs matter of course, and they're still wireless so like most they have that kind of synthetic sound - more on that in a minute​

​

* They gotta be comfy: at least two hours + a few extras are appreciated

- These are most definitely light and comfy; with many headphones I have trouble with the head "hotspot" but not these​

- These have no IP rating so not good for workouts in general, but I use them for treadmill work and some weight training because I don't drip sweat and they sound better than earbuds​

- In general I prefer buttons not a touchpad, but it works fine here so whatever​

- The proximity sensor is a great feature - makes it super easy to take them off, step away, then come back and pick up right where you left off - excellent feature!​

Now on to the sound - i'm not gonna get all audiophile-talk, just some notes:

- The ANC works awesome so immersive and black levels in high noise environments, exactly as you need and expect - all notes are wireless with ANC on and background whitenoise on (an air purifier)​

- Yeah, so they're wireless so they ain't gonna be like your $10k desktop setup - like all wireless I've tried, they kinda have that synthetic tinge ... kinda like stevia vs sugar: still sweet, but a little different​

- Stagewidth/depth isn't big for me, they're more in your head type and imaging is good but, again, in your head; said differently there is no imaging, but there is good instrument separation, so just depending on how you define it​

- If you're picky you're gonna have to spend some time on the EQ - out of the box they're not ideal. at all. But they can easily get there with 5-10min work, at least they did for me.​

- I have a set of tunes I use to test all my equipment and these did really well - plenty of emotional engagement but, again, not like my desktop setup, but then duh - super enjoyable in many more useful situations obvs though​

​

- Some notes on tuneage, all streamed hi-fi from Tidal via LDAC (also used aac, not important enough to change anything here so ignoring)​

​

+ Angry Eyes - Loggins & Messina: this tune is all about the drums and harmonies - the drums at ~43 seconds should sound like someone hit your ear drum and here they do - pass!​

+ Dry Country - B-52s: this one is challenging for HPs like the Aeon v1s, sounds super flat; not here! Properly adjusted this song is all 80s glory - pass! so hot. here come the girls!​

+ Arlington - Wailin Jennys: key here is the opening bass, seperation with the guitar and then the vocals - excellent. Note that, again, not as emotional as on a desktop system, but pass!​

+ Hey Lion - Sofi Tucker: Ok, this is really tough for just about every HP I've tried and only the best can deal with it. The M4s are just barely passable here and it's a song I'd have to readjust to listen to. Fail.​

+ A Thousand Kisses Deep - Leonard Cohen: so this is all about Cohen's voice and backing instrument separation - it's there, it's big and it works. Pass!​

+ Hard Liquor - Thomas Dybdahl: ok this another tough one for many HPs, here there's bloom and definitely muddiness, not the best, but listenable, so low-pass.​

+ This Feeling - Miguel Migs: What an awesome deep house tune, sounds pretty good here, though that @SilverEars boomy bass makes an appearance, but decent: medium pass.​

+ Try and You Try - Cleo Sol: lord what a track, this chick could talk me into anything and that includes over these M4s so while there's the boominess is here a bit too, her vocals! geezus. pass!​

+ Guess I'm doing Fine - Beck: again here we get a little too much boom and they need a stitch of adjustment but they do fine and i'm bobbing my head and into it - pass!​

+ Too Damn Low - DJ Snake: yeah, so the boomy thing but who gives a crap here, this is just damn fun! Boom-Boom-Boom! pass!​

+ Program - DJ Crush: oh boy. just no. Granted this track is mastered pretty bad, but still no. fail.​

+ Chameleon - Trentemoller: Frankly I didn't expect the M4s to do as well as they did, it's actually listenable, but still I think in the spirit of fairness we gotta give it a fail.​

+ Elements (Orchestral Version) - Lindsey Stirling: I'm not gonna lie, on my desktop setup I cry every time I listen to this; sure, the M4s can't dredge up all my life's sorrows and failures into 4 min like a great desktop system does, but it's still damn good - pass!​

+ On and On - Erykah Badu: this is a tough one for tons of HPs: deep bass and a knocky instrument that can ruin your hearing on some headphones; while a bit boomy/bloomy the M4s jam this one out so I'd say it's a big pass!​

+ Mentality - Da Lata: if this song doesn't make you get up and dance offensively in someone's face, you don't like music. The M4s wireless features make this super easy to do, so it's a big pass!​

+ Youth - Daughter: this is another one of those vocal tracks where I'm basically ready to propose at the end of it. The M4s work great in the beginning with just the vocals but struggle with the bass and overwhelm the vocals ... it's a low pass.​

+ Swimmers - Zero 7, Jem Cooke: So basically if it's dusk and you have a motorcycle don't listen to this track unless you're cool with driving for next 4 hours and maybe changing the direction of your life. The M4s do nothing to prevent this. Pass!​

​

SUMMARY
If you need ANC tuned to cancel out voices and higher frequencies these are about the only game in town, so they're worth it just for that. Soundswise, yeah, they're not just good, I'd say really good for wireless headphones ... though if you're looking for sound quality with ANC being secondary then the clear choice is the Dali iO-6s with the Senns a second choice. Overall, they're a great ANC and sound package. If you have the M3s should you upgrade? If you want the higher frequency ANC then yes, otherwise I'd wait. Personally I don't care about airplane engine/wind noise or steady hum noise so ANC wasn't worth it to me until these M4s which are able to cancel crying baby noise, at least enough to be worth it. So, yeah, if you care about that, buy 'em!

I tried the XM4, and enjoyed the sound separation. Very clear differentiation between lows, mids and highs.
Have you tried the mic?
I get a lot of calls, and thought the call microphone NC has been qite improved.
On my old BT50, a humming starts whenver I iuse the mic.

 

[GrussGott]

I tried the XM4, and enjoyed the sound separation. Very clear differentiation between lows, mids and highs.
Have you tried the mic?
I get a lot of calls, and thought the call microphone NC has been qite improved.
On my old BT50, a humming starts whenver I iuse the mic.

No problems for me with the mic - I have a lot of wireless headphones and I had previously used a pair of Bose OEs for calls as they have excellent mic quality for the listener but being on-ear, they don't block out noise as well. The M4s have a pretty good mic setup, not quite as good as the Bose OEs or the Bose 700s, but good enough especially with the ANC. With the CA wildfires recently I'd have air purifiers going full blast around the house and I could easily go anywhere and walk and talk with no loss of quality.

If I were buying purely/primarily for business calls I'd go with Bose, but otherwise M4s for all around use.

 

[monsterquake]

Can anyone tell me if the headphones change the sound quality when wired?

I've read to some people that the sound quality when using wired connection is way worse than with bluetooth, and I would like to use them sometimes wired when gaming to have no delay, but if the quality is way worse, I would like to know it before making a decission

edit: solved, can sound the same if powered and wired

 

[Adnen Ayed]

No problems for me with the mic - I have a lot of wireless headphones and I had previously used a pair of Bose OEs for calls as they have excellent mic quality for the listener but being on-ear, they don't block out noise as well. The M4s have a pretty good mic setup, not quite as good as the Bose OEs or the Bose 700s, but good enough especially with the ANC. With the CA wildfires recently I'd have air purifiers going full blast around the house and I could easily go anywhere and walk and talk with no loss of quality.

If I were buying purely/primarily for business calls I'd go with Bose, but otherwise M4s for all around use.

I didn't try Bose. But I did compare calls on XM3 and XM4 and found the NC has improved a lot.
Thanks for confirming my impression.

 

[SilverEars]

Can anyone tell me if the headphones change the sound quality when wired?

I've read to some people that the sound quality when using wired connection is way worse than with bluetooth, and I would like to use them sometimes wired when gaming to have no delay, but if the quality is way worse, I would like to know it before making a decission

edit: solved, can sound the same if powered and wired

I shouldn't be as long as you have it powered. If you have it unpowered or in passive mode driven by your sound source, it will sound worse since no EQ is applid.

 

[GrussGott]

Can anyone tell me if the headphones change the sound quality when wired?

I shouldn't be as long as you have it powered. If you have it unpowered or in passive mode driven by your sound source, it will sound worse since no EQ is applid.

yup, exactly - I have a feeling the M4 is doing a lot of analysis and compensating for various things (for example, the proximity sensor in the left cup is gonna cause a channel imbalance), so yeah wired will be fine as long as it's powered.

 

[Soundizer]

M4 on ebay now as just ordered AIRPODS MAX. Completely different league in terms of industrial design and functionality. Although £549 not cheap.

 

[noobandroid]

M4 on ebay now as just ordered AIRPODS MAX. Completely different league in terms of industrial design and functionality. Although £549 not cheap.

seriously though... cringe worthy choice

 

[SparkOnShore]

seriously though... cringe worthy choice

I wonder how it will be on the comfort aspect, nearly 100 gr heavier than the xm4! But generally I guess sound will be good with adaptive eq among others. Waiting for the reviews! Really expensive though, double price than xm4 in Europe! Difficult to understand why so...