Sony R10 vs. Sony MDR-SA5000 vs. SA1000

[gsferrari]

Well...my SA5000s are back alive and kicking. They wont be with me for long (my aunt bought them and an amplifier off me - out of kindness and as input towards my Hayabusa fund).

I decided to do a sit-down with the Sony R10s for the last time before boxing them to ship to their new owner and I thought it would be fun to do a bit of a comparo.

The R10 sounds thin and anemic. The bass notes are simply absent - no hedging or fudging here. There is bass but there is something missing. Where is the bass that makes you want to get up and check if you've just felt a mild earthquake? Where is the bass that makes you smile when you hear the drums in a Metallica track. Where is the DEEP rumble when you listen to new age music...and pop...Sting's "Desert Rose" for example?

Its just not there.

The SA5000s on the other hand are absolutely thumping. They dont have deep bass? They do midbass but dont go low? I know low from mid and I tell you they absolutely spank the lowest registers with a taut and speedy delivery that is such a refreshing contrast to the flab and smothery smudge that is the HD-650.

Another minor difference in the favor of the R10 is the midrange. The SA5000 has a fantastic midrange but with my amp it tends to have a bit of SS grit and glare. This is even more obvious with the SA1000. The R10 doesnt exhibit this tonality. Vocal music shows off this drawback better than anything else. Try listening to a MALE vocal (Pavarotti for example) and listen for the glare - you will understand this ONLY if you have some other headphone to compare. This is really minor nitpickings but it is there and as a result of this - I switch to my electrostats when I do any critical listening. The SA5000 cannot be beat by the Omega-II OR the HE-60 for "fun factor" and sheer Bass meat!!

Differences between the R10 and SA5000 dont stop there. The R10 has a weird soundstage. Yes it is all around...which is nice but not quite. It doesnt quite project the image of the music be it a live concert or otherwise. I feel as if I am listening to a variety of instruments doing things all on their own around me. This is also the fault of the HE60 - the effect works great with certain genres of music but sucks for Rock. I cannot listen to Pink Floyd with the HE60s...another reason why I have not sold the Omega-II yet.


The SA5000 images wonderfully. You can "see" the performance if you close your eyes. The beauty of this instrument is that you dont have to pump up the volumes to get your groove on...low volume listening is SOOO pleasurable. I am listening to "Tubular Bells - Mike Oldfield" and the volume is set to just below what makes me want to "grin". I keep turning the volume down from here as I get used to the levels...I end up listening at SUCH a low volume towards the end of all this adjusting.

For comparison - I use the Shure E2 with the Rio Karma and the volume is too loud at "1" when I listen at night

Try this and see how pleasurable it makes the music...it allows you to think about the music - something I value very much. Music allows me to dream and travel in another realm - I dont want to pay attention to it - I want it to help me along the way as I make my journey.

The R10 is also good in this sense but it completely robs the music of the lower registries.


Honestly - I think the SA5000 is a superior headphone to the R10. I have already said this before and those in defense of the R10 are welcome to say what they like. TO ME - the R10 is the inferior headphone. I guess new technology and driver design improvements have come along since the R10 and it shows - the SA5000 positively rocks my boat and I wouldnt trade it for the R10 if anyone made the offer.

The SA1000 is a bit of an oddity. It has about the same level of bass as the SA5000 - BUT- it also packs a bit of flab in the bass that reminds me of the HD-650. An omnipresent rumble that sometimes vibrates the earcups even at low levels. Bass monster! The SA1000 has a significantly hiked up treble response compared to the SA5000 which sounds just right. The SA1000 is gritty and less refined in overall sonic texture. The most glaring fault is the sucked out midrange. Where did the midrange go?

I love the SA1000 for use with my PC and that will not change. But the fact is that the SA5000 has just strongly placed it's stamp of authority over all my headphones in several departments.


Fantastic headphone...

 

[Jazper]

Nice writeup GS...

very nice writeup.. And yeah I love my SA-5ks..

First day or two I wasn't sure.. then they grew on me in a big way.

I think if they were another $100-150USD they'd still be worth it.. and that says something

 

[Wmcmanus]

You mentioned, "... with my amp" but didn't mention which amp that is. I've found that the R10's (as have many, many people if you read the many, many threads about them, as I'm sure you have) are about as amp sensitive as any pair of headphones I've ever listened to. This is particularly true with respect to the bass response, which can and does range from almost non existent to amazingly clean, coherent, full and impactful.

With the Maestro ZR, the SA5000's sound like toys (thin, edgey, and totally uninvolving) in comparison to the R10s, and it's the lack bass response of the SA5000's that makes them practically unlistenable. Actually, after a couple of songs, you get adjusted to them and quite enjoy them, but they are still "off" in the lower registers in terms of weight and impact. I guess it all goes to show, we all have different systems and we all hear differently. I'm not at all arguing with what you hear, just stating what I do.

 

[Nik]

Agree about the R10.

Unfortunately the SA5000 was very unconfortable for my head. I think that thery have the same driver of the Qualia and built in a better adjustable structure...

What I do not like os much these Sony cans is a "lack" in warm and feeling with listener-music, I'm speaking in the sense of envolving and hear all-around you. This experience I have done only with the L3000, I love a lot this way to enter inside of the music tha I do not think is a Sony's cans caracteristic...

Just my two cents...

Best!
Nicola

 

[Jazper]

I'm CONVINCED that the reason a lot of people say the SA5ks bass is aniemic is because of their huge thirst for current. Feed them with plenty of current and the amount of bass is an absolute joy (I think this makes me a closet bass head)

 

[elmoe]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jazper I'm CONVINCED that the reason a lot of people say the SA5ks bass is aniemic is because of their huge thirst for current. Feed them with plenty of current and the amount of bass is an absolute joy (I think this makes me a closet bass head)

I disagree, current won't be enough. I've tried plenty of SS amps including a Dynahi which should have no problem driving them whatsoever, and bass was still weak. My MPX3 however, brought a wonderful, bloomy bass which keeps its speed and detail. I think tube is the way to go.

 

[amartignano]

IMHO tha main problem with the SA5000 is a strong resonance and coloration of the mid-highs regions, that for me someway "killed" the real timbre of many instruments, mainly violins and chorus voices (but not only).

Except of this, they are truly astonishing headphones, but for me linearity in mid region is mandatory, and I can't stand with the coloration of the SA5000. I wonder a so very well engineered driver what it can do if "properly" mounted.

bye
Andrea

 

[bangraman]

I'm not doing any involved comparisons at this time, but there is definitely something about the SA5K that bothers me in comparison to the W2002 and the Qualia. The SA5K strikes me most as a wannabe W2002 with more bass.


The thump is good on the SA5K. But with a good amp I would at this point personally take the R10 over the SA5K for a much more refined listening experience, comparative lack of bass or not.

 

[Wmcmanus]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bangraman The SA5K strikes me most as a wannabe W2002 with more bass.

A lot more speed of attack too, but you're definitely on to something there.

 

[Jazper]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jashugan I disagree, current won't be enough. I've tried plenty of SS amps including a Dynahi which should have no problem driving them whatsoever, and bass was still weak. My MPX3 however, brought a wonderful, bloomy bass which keeps its speed and detail. I think tube is the way to go.

Check my sig...

With the M3 they have plenty of bass, no problem driving them whatsoever

 

[bangraman]

The SA5K drivers are physically different to the 010's BTW.

 

[Wmcmanus]

Quote:

Originally Posted by amartignano IMHO tha main problem with the SA5000 is a strong resonance and coloration of the mid-highs regions... Except of this, they are truly astonishing headphones, but for me linearity in mid region is mandatory, and I can't stand with the coloration of the SA5000.

As I think about it, this is probably a much more accurate description of what I'm hearing with the SA5000's as well. I described it as a lack of bass, but in reality, it's proabably the tonal slant or "resonance and coloration of the mid-highs" as you've so aptly put it, that bothers me. There is something that "ain't quite right" about them up there, at least to my ears.

But in all fairness, I do need to break them in properly before I can come to any final conclusions. There are so many factors at play: system matching (the amp in particular, but also sources and cables influence the tone considerably), the types of music you like, the volume you listen at, and of course your personal sonic preferences (what you're "looking" for in headphones). And then there is break-in... and even after considering all of this, I agree that they are "truly astonishing headphones" but not the final answer for me. At least not yet.

 

[amartignano]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wmcmanus As I think about it, this is probably a much more accurate description of what I'm hearing with the SA5000's as well. I described it as a lack of bass, but in reality, it's proabably the tonal slant or "resonance and coloration of the mid-highs" as you've so aptly put it, that bothers me. There is something that "ain't quite right" about them up there, at least to my ears. But in all fairness, I do need to break them in properly before I can come to any final conclusions. There are so many factors at play: system matching (the amp in particular, but also sources and cables influence the tone considerably), the types of music you like, the volume you listen at, and of course your personal sonic preferences (what you're "looking" for in headphones). And then there is break-in... and even after considering all of this, I agree that they are "truly astonishing headphones" but not the final answer for me. At least not yet.

I don't think an amp can do much in this regard. Maybe an eq. Not kidding. I've tried to do this:

I measured the freq response of my DT880 and the SA5000. I made this with my SoundBlaster and a normal Sennheiser microphone, so not linear, but I was interested in the differences between the two frequency response, so the non linearity of the microphones delete itself.

The results:

Freq Response of DT880 and SA5000 (attention: microphone non linear...)

But I'm interested in the differences in mid and mid-highs, so the non linearity of the microphone deletes and the lack of driver loading for the bass region is not important.

Here the difference in freq response (SA5k - DT880):

You can see there are 10 dB in "excess" in the 1500-4000 Hz region.

I've tried to make an equalization based on this graph. It was quite "manual" and not precise, but I achieved very good results with this EQ:

I've applied this eq to some P.Simon's songs from "hears and bones" and to some classical music. Without this peak in mid-highs region the Sa5000 sounds truly better IMHO.

Maybe a control of the resonance will bring Sony to make an SA7000

... seriously, I think it could be a spectacular headphones if only the Sony engineers can (would?) achieve a better linearity in this "sensible" range.

bye
Andrea

 

[MikoLayer]

I have been a sennheiser man this whole time, and my entire setup tends to warmth and lushness, quite opposite of what SA5K is known for. but seeing so many raves and positive remarks on the new sonys, I feel obliged to try them out sooner or later. Accordingly, I have been monitoring the FS forums for a used pair past couple of days or so. IIRC tho, gsferrari, you liked the klipsch multimedia speakers for computers didnt you? if that was the case, I have a feeling I might not like what I hear with SA5ks when I get them. sorry if I am mistaken, just an observation

 

[bangraman]

They're sort of the high-end AKG K26P's... pounding bass, sticky out highs, quacky mids

They've definitely engineered the drivers to move like the V700DJ's, which explains the bass.