[nanaholic]

It is that Sony is greedy, absolutely.

The WM1Z didn't took 20 years of development lol. AKM does have the bigger R&D Team and puts much more money into R&D than Sony and still sell their DAC sell for 40~50€. Knowles sells their Balanced Armature drivers for around 2€ each. You could build your own High-End Custom IEM with the best Knowles drivers for less than 30€ production cost (and Knowles includes their R&D cost in their product prices).

You'd have a point if AKM make any DAPs - which they don't. So that's an orange and apples comparison. Also there's this thing call economies of scale, AKM spends more money in R&D as a whole because as I already said each chip AKM makes is designed to be sold in lots of millions. Sony's S-Master chip production is much smaller in comparison, hence their cost as compared to other DAP makers such as Astel&Kern, are actually higher, yet Sony's pricing is inline as all the other DAP makers on the market.

Knowles - same thing. Sony makes BA drivers for their own internal use, which at best is maybe hundreds of thousands of units. Knowles is probably selling to every joe and dick and huang and chen in China in millions of units scale. Again economy of scale.

You are actually making the case for Sony changing the same price preciously for them not having the economy of scale as each internal component they create is only for Sony's own use.

I think you have absolutely no clue about component prices in the audio industry. They are low, extremely low.

Nope, that would actually be you, because you've already made the very simple mistake of not understanding how economies of scale for large ODM and mass component makers like AKM and Knowles allows them to charge lower price per unit as they sell at a much larger quantity compared to how Sony's components are only for Sony's own use.

Of course they are selling much higher numbers because a lot of companies buy their products, but the difference is not that biig.

You are kidding right?

Can you even name a DAP or audio component DAC maker who absolutely DOESN'T use ANY AKM chips for example? It's Sony vs every single DAP maker + desktop DAC maker and you can say with a straight face that the difference is not "that big"? The quantity difference would easily be in the hundred fold. In fact it's so bad we saw how the fire accident which burnt down part of the AKM factory led to many delayed products or switching to ESS this year across the ENTIRE audio industry. It's Sony's own products vs the ENTIRE audiophile industry, like seriously how can you keep a straight face and say the difference is not big?

Same for BA drivers, heck there are even MORE BA earphones out there than ever before.

I know from a first hand information from a Sony employee that they could easily have sold the WM1Z for less than 1500€ and still make revenue with it.

And I know the actual WM1Z audio designer and product manager in Japan, they are even my mutual friends on Facebook.

Rest of your post is irrelevant - Sony's photography department is separate to Sony's audio department and is managed separately, so what Sony does to their mirrorless SLR is irrelevant to their audio department.

 

[mainguy]

Rest of your post is irrelevant - Sony's photography department is separate to Sony's audio department and is managed separately, so what Sony does to their mirrorless SLR is irrelevant to their audio department.

Not to mention Sony’s in house stuff is way better anyway. The Wm1z absolutely trounces the Ak380 and undercut it in price, I havent seen anyone who tried both and thought otherwise, myself included.

What Vamp is failing to comprehend is competition.

Cost and production dont determine product costs, the market does.

An AK DAP is £3000, all of them worse than the WM1z. Is Sony still pricing unfairly?

A Chord Mojo + Poly is £1000
A wm1a is £1000

again, comparable products with the edge to the wm1a.

Also what he’s forgetting is Sony has been around for eons. Its taken a huge amount of time to get to the point where they can make something like the WM1z, margins on it are surely great, but thats of no significance. A college professor can make £300 an hour teaching, is he greedy or just experienced?

 

[rlw6534]

I'm just glad that Sony is still in the DAP business, given the Chi-Fi competition and other factors that led to Onkyo, etc exiting the market. I hope they continue to develop and sell products at whatever cost/price is needed to justify sticking around...

 

[rlw6534]

I'm just glad that Sony is still in the DAP business, given the Chi-Fi competition and other factors that led to Onkyo, etc exiting the market. I hope they continue to develop and sell products at whatever cost/price is needed to justify sticking around...

Also, I'm glad they don't introduce new models every few months, making my most recent purchase obsolete. I would like to see more development in software/firmware though, such as DAC mode and streaming improvements, etc...

 

[sander93]

It is that Sony is greedy, absolutely.

The WM1Z didn't took 20 years of development lol. AKM does have the bigger R&D Team and puts much more money into R&D than Sony and still sell their DAC sell for 40~50€. Knowles sells their Balanced Armature drivers for around 2€ each. You could build your own High-End Custom IEM with the best Knowles drivers for less than 30€ production cost (and Knowles includes their R&D cost in their product prices).

I think you have absolutely no clue about component prices in the audio industry. They are low, extremely low.

Of course they are selling much higher numbers because a lot of companies buy their products, but the difference is not that biig.

I know from a first hand information from a Sony employee that they could easily have sold the WM1Z for less than 1500€ and still make revenue with it.

They sell it for 3300€ because people pay 3300€ for it, simple as that.

The Sony a7R IV costs around 600€ in production and sells for 4000€. Do you really think the R&D of the Sony a7R IV (which is just a minor improvement over the a7R II and a7R III, so very low R&D) was that high, that they need to sell it 3400€ highger than the production cost? Common!

If Sonys R&D Team really is that expensive, they have the worst and most uneffective R&D department of any company. So basically i am paying for slow and incompetent people? lol no, Sony is just greedy, always was and always will be.

The Sony a99 took way more R&D and production cost (Made in Japan) than the much simpler, easier to build Made in Taiwan a7 and still they sold for the same price. Sony was selling the camera that took more R&D and more money to produce for the exact same price than the Camera that used the exact same technology (so almost no R&D) and was produced for less than 1/4 of the cost. Explain that!

SIGMA buys the Sensor from the Made in Thailand 4000€ a7r IV from Sony and sell their Made in Japan SIGMA fp L using that Sensor for 2400€ and make revenue with that. And Sony makes revenue with selling the Sensor to SIGMA.

The Made in Japan 39 Megapixel SIGMA sd Quattro which uses SIGMAs Foveon Sensor (They develop their own Image Sensor, the most complex one in the world and only use it themself in small quantities. So the most expensive Image Sensor in the World) sells for 800€ while the Made in China Sony a6600 which uses the 24 Megapixel Sensor Sony uses since roughly 10 years (with minor improvements) sells for 1600€

Don't tell me that the R&D and the unique business Modell of Sony (largest Sensor Maker in the World, pretty much Every Smartphone and most Cameras use Sony Sensors) is the reason why the a6600 costs 1600€ and the SIGMA sd Quattro costs 800€ even though they do not sell any part to any other company.

Same with SIGMA lenses. All Made in Japan, highest R&D in the camera business and still SIGMA lenses sell for 1/2 price of Sonys Made in Taiwan and China lenses while providing the same or better image quality.

Sony is fu**ing greedy, they have been 10 years ago and they haven't changed. But they are right. People are throwing their Money at them as hard as they can, why should they be stupid and not take it?

They re-branded(!!!) an (back then) 15 year old 35mm F1.4 Minolta lense that sold for around 500€ as an Sony G Lense and sold it for 1800€

1300€ price increase for a re-branding? That must have been one hell of a expensive rebranding process.



It is nice that you defend Sony, but as someone who was a Sony photographer for years and was tired of constantly getting cheated by the company i have been loyal to left marks.

When SIGMA released the SIGMA SD1 for 7500€ they later optimized and streamlined the production and re-released the SD1 with identical specs for 2100€. And everyone who bought the SD1 for the original price got the difference back in form of a voucher they could use to buy lenses at SIGMA. That is how you deal with high R&D, not selling the product for 5 years straight and make more than 100 Million € of revenue with it.

regarding value/price wm1A and zx507 soundly beat their competitors.
A&K se100, sp1000m for 1.5-2.5x higher price, sounds inferior to sony.

 

[lizardos24]

Hi, do you mind telling me how the ZX507 compares to the Mojo sound-wise? I have the Mojo and I find it a very good match to my Sony M9, mostly because I think its snappy sound signature compensates for the mild smoothness of the M9. I'm wondering whether & how the ZX507 might stand as a comparable alternative for listening on the go. So far I've been using a FiiO Q3 for the purpose but the M9 outclasses it easily.

Mostly listening to jazz & classical, but I'll occasionally also revert to some more contemporary/upbeat tracks

Hello.
Long story short: Sound-wise, for me the Mojo is warmer and has a bit of better instrumental separation. In the rest the ZX507 is superior: more powerful bass, more defined highs, and above all the soundstage is much wider and the positioning is more precise. It shows a lot in the Miles Davis album Kind of blue, for example.
But if you buy the European ZX507 and you are going to use it with an IER-M9 (20 ohm and 103db / mw) it is possible that you lack power. Comparing with other full BAs, with my old BGVP DM8 (27 ohm and 110db / mw) I had to use it at maximum volume and in many recordings it fell short. On my CA Andromeda (9 ohm and 121 db / mw) there is no lack of volume.
Test the Sony if you can (I bought it on Amazon).
Regards.

 

[Kozwoz]

My Google Play store is missing from my apps section on my ZX507. Anyone have any idea how I can get it back without having to format? Much appreciated!

 

[angpsi]

Hello.
Long story short: Sound-wise, for me the Mojo is warmer and has a bit of better instrumental separation. In the rest the ZX507 is superior: more powerful bass, more defined highs, and above all the soundstage is much wider and the positioning is more precise. It shows a lot in the Miles Davis album Kind of blue, for example.
But if you buy the European ZX507 and you are going to use it with an IER-M9 (20 ohm and 103db / mw) it is possible that you lack power. Comparing with other full BAs, with my old BGVP DM8 (27 ohm and 110db / mw) I had to use it at maximum volume and in many recordings it fell short. On my CA Andromeda (9 ohm and 121 db / mw) there is no lack of volume.
Test the Sony if you can (I bought it on Amazon).
Regards.

Not that I wasn't quasi-sold already but your answer tipped the scale. My ZX-507 is on its way, so we'll know soon enough how it mates with the M9 in practice...

It's the EU version, but I think I can get it uncapped somehow, right?

 

[sander93]

Not that I wasn't quasi-sold already but your answer tipped the scale. My ZX-507 is on its way, so we'll know soon enough how it mates with the M9 in practice...

It's the EU version, but I think I can get it uncapped somehow, right?

never heard that someone uncapped zx507

 

[MrWalkman]

Not that I wasn't quasi-sold already but your answer tipped the scale. My ZX-507 is on its way, so we'll know soon enough how it mates with the M9 in practice...

It's the EU version, but I think I can get it uncapped somehow, right?

Android players can't get uncapped.

 

[angpsi]

Android players can't get uncapped.

Thanks for the heads up, must be residue impressions from all the posts I've been digesting from the WM1a/z thread!

Still hopeful that the ZX507 will be a good match to the M9 nonetheless...

 

[nanaholic]

My Google Play store is missing from my apps section on my ZX507. Anyone have any idea how I can get it back without having to format? Much appreciated!

If you swipe up from the bottom edge, you should be able to bring up the Android App Drawer where all the app shortcuts resides.

 

[Faizalfx]

Zx507 + m9 is a pair made in heaven. Infact i've stopped searching for the perfect iem/dap combo after getting this. But im a sony fanboi so i might be bias

 

[sander93]

zx507 + xba z5

 

[KerrangZ]

Hi guys,

I recently bought a micro USB to usb-c cable for my ZX507b to plug into my TA-ZH1ES and on screen it will prompt "Allow TIDAL to access TA-ZH1ES?", I select OK and nothing happens. I do the same with the music player and when I play a song, it says "Cannot play". Any idea what's going on?