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SONY NW-ZX500
Dec 13, 2019 at 7:50 AM Post #1,186 of 8,639
purk said:
I think Sony engineers do know better than anyone. They are the folks who came up with this type of capacitor. In fact, they only recommend 100 hours of burn in time on the ZX1 or ZX2 then increase it to 200 hour on the successor models. Before the ZX1/2, there was no mention of the burn in requirement on their DAP. I hate burn in period!
Click to expand...
I dislike it too, but it pays off when you muster up the patience . I let my ZX300 just play overnight until it was burned-in.
 
Dec 13, 2019 at 11:03 AM Post #1,188 of 8,639
Earbones said:
Caveat- these are my day 1 impressions. I know many people, with fantastic ears and a great wealth of knowledge, put a lot of stock in burn-in... but I'm not one of them. Different strokes, and all that. Personally I've always found that it's my ears being trained, not the device or headphone/IEM physically changing... Mostly because I've noticed that if I experience what I think is burn-in on a device, and then listen to something else for a month or so, when I circle back to the previous device, it will have returned to it's "pre-burn in state", lol. That all said, many people whose opinions I value highly take burn-in very seriously. So. Take that as you will. If you are a burn-in believer, then be aware that these are my impressions with around an hour on the NW-ZX507, and countless on the PHA-2A.
Click to expand...

Apples and orange comparison.

Headphones and earphones drivers have minimal "burn in" effects because material fatigue due to physical bending/flexing in the driver is barely there over the short period of time that is usually referenced for with burning (usually within 200 hours if you believe what burn-in advocates says regarding headphone burn-in) when we are talking about modern materials, so you aren't wrong there.

For the Walkmans, Sony uses polymer capacitors in the output where the chemical composition of the electrolyte material changes much more rapidly (compared to headphone drivers) as they are used, and they are also more sensitive to surrounding factors such as temperature (they are packed tightly inside an enclosure), this is why there's a "burn-in" effect for the Walkmans. Also capacitors are "active" components because they change the flow and level of electricity via a chemical reaction in the capacitor's electrolyte where the material gains and loses electrons as they work, and that ability is not a constant but gradually changes and is lost over time (because capacitors are similar to batteries, and everyone knows batteries degrades via charging and discharging and have concretely and measurably experienced it first hand - multiple times even), so the "burn-in" (or more properly their service life) is very much a confirmed phenomenon and is accurately documented and disclosed because people who uses these components have to factor this in when using these components.

Also I don't believe PHA-2A uses polymer capacitors, but rather the much more stable (but cheaper and less accurate) ceramic type capacitors.

So you can't brush everything with one broad stroke.
 
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Dec 13, 2019 at 12:04 PM Post #1,189 of 8,639
nanaholic said:
Apples and orange comparison.

Headphones and earphones drivers have minimal "burn in" effects because material fatigue due to physical bending/flexing in the driver is barely there over the short period of time that is usually referenced for with burning (usually within 200 hours if you believe what burn-in advocates says regarding headphone burn-in) when we are talking about modern materials, so you aren't wrong there.

For the Walkmans, Sony uses polymer capacitors in the output where the chemical composition of the electrolyte material changes much more rapidly (compared to headphone drivers) as they are used, and they are also more sensitive to surrounding factors such as temperature (they are packed tightly inside an enclosure), this is why there's a "burn-in" effect for the Walkmans. Also capacitors are "active" components because they change the flow and level of electricity via a chemical reaction in the capacitor's electrolyte where the material gains and loses electrons as they work, and that ability is not a constant but gradually changes and is lost over time (because capacitors are similar to batteries, and everyone knows batteries degrades via charging and discharging and have concretely and measurably experienced it first hand - multiple times even), so the "burn-in" (or more properly their service life) is very much a confirmed phenomenon and is accurately documented and disclosed because people who uses these components have to factor this in when using these components.

Also I don't believe PHA-2A uses polymer capacitors, but rather the much more stable (but cheaper and less accurate) ceramic type capacitors.

So you can't brush everything with one broad stroke.
Click to expand...
Again, I’m not debating this here. But you’re welcome to take it up with NASA. https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20100015162.pdf
 
Dec 13, 2019 at 12:25 PM Post #1,190 of 8,639
Earbones said:
Again, I’m not debating this here. But you’re welcome to take it up with NASA. https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20100015162.pdf
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I read the paper, but I don't really see where it proves your point? From the summary:
"Although all PA capacitors exhibit high capacitance and mΩ level low ESR values regardless of the capacitor structures, other electrical performance of PA capacitors depends highly on the capacitor structures. The PA capacitors made with loose wound structure show high dielectric loss, high DC leakage current, low capacitance roll-off frequency, and low surge breakdown voltages. The capacitors with “laminated” structure exhibit the most stable dielectric response versus frequency and temperature. All PA capacitors show the same failure mechanism in surge breakdown voltage testing regardless of the capacitor structures. The much tighter distribution in surge breakdown voltages of PA capacitors, when compared to that of a MnO2-based tantalum capacitor, suggests that voltage de-rating may not be necessary for PA capacitors."

There doesn't seem to be any concrete conclusions, other than some capacitor structures breakdown less than others, and the some PA capacitors may not need voltage de-rating?

Interesting read, regardless. Thanks for sharing! For the ZX-507, I feel like the high frequencies have chilled a bit as I've listened to it. Being somewhat sensitive to treble, I don't think that I've grown used to the sound, but it's possible. It sounded pretty good when I first got it, and it sounds even better now after a couple hundred hours of use on the balanced side. The SE side still sounds a bit brighter than the balanced side to me, but I rarely use that port, and it could all be in my mind.
 
Dec 13, 2019 at 1:07 PM Post #1,192 of 8,639
brokengundam said:
I read the paper, but I don't really see where it proves your point? From the summary:
"Although all PA capacitors exhibit high capacitance and mΩ level low ESR values regardless of the capacitor structures, other electrical performance of PA capacitors depends highly on the capacitor structures. The PA capacitors made with loose wound structure show high dielectric loss, high DC leakage current, low capacitance roll-off frequency, and low surge breakdown voltages. The capacitors with “laminated” structure exhibit the most stable dielectric response versus frequency and temperature. All PA capacitors show the same failure mechanism in surge breakdown voltage testing regardless of the capacitor structures. The much tighter distribution in surge breakdown voltages of PA capacitors, when compared to that of a MnO2-based tantalum capacitor, suggests that voltage de-rating may not be necessary for PA capacitors."

There doesn't seem to be any concrete conclusions, other than some capacitor structures breakdown less than others, and the some PA capacitors may not need voltage de-rating?

Interesting read, regardless. Thanks for sharing! For the ZX-507, I feel like the high frequencies have chilled a bit as I've listened to it. Being somewhat sensitive to treble, I don't think that I've grown used to the sound, but it's possible. It sounded pretty good when I first got it, and it sounds even better now after a couple hundred hours of use on the balanced side. The SE side still sounds a bit brighter than the balanced side to me, but I rarely use that port, and it could all be in my mind.
Click to expand...
This may be a forest-for-the-trees scenario...
 
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Dec 13, 2019 at 1:38 PM Post #1,194 of 8,639
Earbones said:
Again, I’m not debating this here. But you’re welcome to take it up with NASA. https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20100015162.pdf
Click to expand...

I see nothing in that paper which says the performance of capacitors don't change over time or usage.

Also this paper examines the different physical structure of capacitors and their affects on its performance, which is especially interesting because even with the same rated capacitance, the frequency roll-off, voltage leakage and dielectric lose can be different simply due to how it is physically built, which means just looking at the capacitance rating of a capacitor doesn't tell you near enough of how it will perform in a analog circuit.

EDIT:
On the other hand - you can actually read the product catalogue of the similar type of OS-CON that is used in the Walkman
https://industrial.panasonic.com/cdbs/www-data/pdf/AAB8000/AAB8000COL87.pdf
The expected range of capacitance change over the guaranteed life-time of the capacitors (measured within thousands of hours) is plus/minus 20% - that's a HUGE measurable value.
 
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Dec 13, 2019 at 1:59 PM Post #1,196 of 8,639
We are.

I don't believe in headphone burn-ins because there's no data to support it. But capacitor performance changing over time is a known science and engineering fact, and one of the best evidence for that is when manufacturers won't guarantee its performance after a certain amount of clearly defined time/usage period (because they don't want to be sued and lose money, can't get more real than that).
 
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Dec 13, 2019 at 2:56 PM Post #1,198 of 8,639
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