SONY NW-WM1Z / WM1A
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Aug 7, 2020 at 2:24 PM Post #42,661 of 45,723

MrWalkman

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yes but what is the problem he is experiencing, I still don't understand it ?

It is a real problem - not for everyone, it's true, but it exists.


Before we talk about PWM, we need to explain the basics about signal types. There are two basic kinds of signal types — Analog and Digital. Analog signal types have degrees of intensity, between 0% (off) and 100% (maximum), allowing for a range of accuracy when determining something like screen brightness or fan speed. Digital signal types, on the other hand, have no degrees of intensity; they simply have an off or on state. This means something like brightness control is impossible on its own, because in digital terms, the backlight is either on or off.

Digital signal controllers, however, are cheaper, smaller, more power efficient, and simpler to implement than analog controls. In order to take advantage of the benefits of digital signal controllers while retaining (and even surpassing) analog functionality, PWM is used.

PWM is a very rapid frequency of on/off states of the digital signal to achieve a result similar to what could be achieved on a plain Analog signal. If you wanted 70% screen brightness for example, you would simply need to keep the digital signal on for 70% of the time and off for 30% of the time your screen was turned on. This is done rapidly, with the frequency measured in Hertz (Hz), or number of times per second. The faster the frequency, the less noticeable the off states become, until the resulting effect is indistinguishable from what an analog signal would produce.



The idea is that some people can perceive the off and on turning of the display. Imagine watching a quickly flashing light. Depending on the person, it may cause headaches, or even seizures for persons with epilepsy for example. It's not the case with PWM, as the frequency is higher, but sometimes it's not high enough, and people can perceive that "flashing".
 
Aug 7, 2020 at 2:28 PM Post #42,662 of 45,723

Sonywalkmanuser

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Aug 7, 2020 at 2:54 PM Post #42,663 of 45,723

Vitaly2017

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It is a real problem - not for everyone, it's true, but it exists.


Before we talk about PWM, we need to explain the basics about signal types. There are two basic kinds of signal types — Analog and Digital. Analog signal types have degrees of intensity, between 0% (off) and 100% (maximum), allowing for a range of accuracy when determining something like screen brightness or fan speed. Digital signal types, on the other hand, have no degrees of intensity; they simply have an off or on state. This means something like brightness control is impossible on its own, because in digital terms, the backlight is either on or off.

Digital signal controllers, however, are cheaper, smaller, more power efficient, and simpler to implement than analog controls. In order to take advantage of the benefits of digital signal controllers while retaining (and even surpassing) analog functionality, PWM is used.

PWM is a very rapid frequency of on/off states of the digital signal to achieve a result similar to what could be achieved on a plain Analog signal. If you wanted 70% screen brightness for example, you would simply need to keep the digital signal on for 70% of the time and off for 30% of the time your screen was turned on. This is done rapidly, with the frequency measured in Hertz (Hz), or number of times per second. The faster the frequency, the less noticeable the off states become, until the resulting effect is indistinguishable from what an analog signal would produce.



The idea is that some people can perceive the off and on turning of the display. Imagine watching a quickly flashing light. Depending on the person, it may cause headaches, or even seizures for persons with epilepsy for example. It's not the case with PWM, as the frequency is higher, but sometimes it's not high enough, and people can perceive that "flashing".



Interesting facts I honestly was kinda suspecting something but never got to the point as it never also bothered...

I simply told my self aa it just because its an older device the screen acts differently
 
Aug 7, 2020 at 2:54 PM Post #42,664 of 45,723

nc8000

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I see, thank you both. I didn’t doubt it was real, I just didn’t know/understand what the problem is. So if I understand it, the effect will be more noticable the lower the light is on the display ?
 
Aug 7, 2020 at 2:59 PM Post #42,666 of 45,723

MrWalkman

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Interesting facts I honestly was kinda suspecting something but never got to the point as it never also bothered...

I simply told my self aa it just because its an older device the screen acts differently
I see, thank you both. I didn’t doubt it was real, I just didn’t know/understand what the problem is. So if I understand it, the effect will be more noticable the lower the light is on the display ?

Yes, exactly, the lower the brightness, the lower the frequency, so it becomes more noticeable.
 
Aug 7, 2020 at 3:06 PM Post #42,667 of 45,723

nc8000

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Yes, exactly, the lower the brightness, the lower the frequency, so it becomes more noticeable.

So I’m just lucky to not be affected as I have the screen brightnes on 1 and the screen is rock stable with absolutely no flickering
 
Aug 7, 2020 at 3:08 PM Post #42,668 of 45,723

MrWalkman

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So I’m just lucky to not be affected as I have the screen brightnes on 1 and the screen is rock stable with absolutely no flickering

You won't really see the flickering, it's more like you just "perceive" it, and just looking at the screen can give you a headache.

It's similar to 60 FPS vs 120 FPS in games. We cannot really see 120 FPS, but if you're playing a game at 120 FPS and then you try again at 60 FPS, you'll notice that 120 FPS is different, and better. In this case, it's a matter of perceiving rather than seeing.
 
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Aug 7, 2020 at 3:15 PM Post #42,669 of 45,723

Sonywalkmanuser

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Aaa in photography we call thos the banding effect now I gotsha!

I think what is even more challenging for some of us folks here is that we have developed ultra sensitivity to bad sounding audio products.

The moment when we pickup a gear to test... we kinda already know what is right or wrong with the sound.

Is there a name for this condition?

Is it called Golden ears?
 
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Aug 7, 2020 at 3:16 PM Post #42,670 of 45,723

Vitaly2017

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I think what is even more challenging for some of us folks here is that we have developed ultra sensitivity to bad sounding audio products.

The moment when we pickup a gear to test... we kinda already know what is right or wrong with the sound.

Is there a name for this condition?

Is it called Golden ears?


Its called tiger ears haha
 
Aug 7, 2020 at 3:18 PM Post #42,671 of 45,723

Maxx134

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It does look like a big problem for those devices, but it doesn't show anything like that on my Sony... I'm good.
:)
 
Aug 7, 2020 at 4:22 PM Post #42,672 of 45,723

bflat

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You won't really see the flickering, it's more like you just "perceive" it, and just looking at the screen can give you a headache.

It's similar to 60 FPS vs 120 FPS in games. We cannot really see 120 FPS, but if you're playing a game at 120 FPS and then you try again at 60 FPS, you'll notice that 120 FPS is different, and better. In this case, it's a matter of perceiving rather than seeing.

This is analogous to the debate of Hi Res audio. Before we had screen technology we have today, most experts said that the human eye could not see beyond 30 fps and 300 dpi. Your average smartphone now has at least 400 dpi and 60 fps, with quite a few even higher. Yet like you said you may not notice scaling up but after you spend some time on the higher end, you feel something is off when you go back. Having said that, I'm sure there are quite a few folks who claim that don't see any difference with these higher resolutions and frame rates and it's only the "hardcore gamers" that care.

Hmmm, I wonder what you call an audiophile who also happens to be a hardcore gamer?
 
Aug 7, 2020 at 4:45 PM Post #42,673 of 45,723

MrWalkman

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This is analogous to the debate of Hi Res audio. Before we had screen technology we have today, most experts said that the human eye could not see beyond 30 fps and 300 dpi. Your average smartphone now has at least 400 dpi and 60 fps, with quite a few even higher. Yet like you said you may not notice scaling up but after you spend some time on the higher end, you feel something is off when you go back. Having said that, I'm sure there are quite a few folks who claim that don't see any difference with these higher resolutions and frame rates and it's only the "hardcore gamers" that care.

Hmmm, I wonder what you call an audiophile who also happens to be a hardcore gamer?

I guess it's not straight up "seeing" the higher FPS or the higher DPI, but more like noticing its absence when going back to lower FPS or lower DPI, or something like that.

So it could be the same for Hi Res audio - we might notice that something it's missing when going back to non Hi Res stuff.

I'm not an expert or anything, of course, this is only my opinion.
 
Aug 7, 2020 at 6:22 PM Post #42,675 of 45,723

kova4a

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This is what happens when you have a capable reviewer embarrass themself by judging from specific limited measurements, and not enough experience.
So now he says one of the best Dap out (S-O-N-Y-!) is not up to par.
This is obvious bias.
There is so, so, so much more to a dap than this, that member @Sonywalkmanuser is currently posting about and enlightening us.
Showing time and time again, that sony engineers are just simply ahead of the others.



None of this will happen, so your talking about "what if"...
NO ONE is going to evolve to hear 120+DB. Your going to go deaf.
Reality.
NO ONE, is going to waste time making computer sound, that no one will be able to hear (except dogs). Reality.



That is speculation on the reviewers part, basing it on one aspect.
For example Chord doesn't focus on this aspect. They focus and talk about their "Taps".
So to me, this is what I would call "nitpicking" on one specific scenario of measument to come up with an assumption.


Opinion is what it is, ONLY his opinion.

Oh yes he is.
It's rediculously obvious when there is no "reasonable" explanation, as mentioned earlier, we don't actually use more dynamic range...



Yes because although it is a "closed back", that cup is actually not dense, or solid.
It's like a paper so why that big headphones is so deceivingly lightweight, and yes sounds from outside leak right thru it.


Extended listening straight out of the Sony will reveal the Z1r more technically better and resolving, although a different and larger signature.
:)


I have been reading you posting about this issue, but never what's wrong until now.
I was assuming it interfered with sound because those previous posts somehow alluded to something wrong.
Now I understand that it is only because of looking at screen you can get a headache??!!
This is a non issue to majority of users. It's a smaller screen than a phone as well.

So then just dim the screen or turn off.
Nobody is going to stare at the screen for the duration of a song to get a headache.
I would make sure there is enough ambient light in room to offset any of the screen light to bother, if you're sensitive.



Totally disagree...
To me, a very reliable source would mean they own the headphone, and the Sony 1a Dap, and also a good amp.

More power doesn't automatically mean better.
You may get fatigue with the power or the specific (extra) amp sound.
The headphone will sound different for sure.
You may, or may regret it.
You will not gain any more quality than you put in.


This is what happens when you listen to others, instead of listening yourself, or people that own the item.
This is all misunderstanding. If you listened to that "fool", then you would be miserable listening on an AK dap, or not knowing better.
You can't go by gossip & generalizations.



I agree it still good and delicacy this way.
The Z1r is a different animal than the rest like 1a & 1am2. It is very very efficient.



That's depending if you want the full capability of bass impact & control.
Most headphones beninfit, but the Z1r does play very well straight out of the Sony.
My problem is that this headphones has much bass capability, so on an amp the Z1r takes on a monsterous bass character along with a bit more intensity.


It will change the sound character.
If you like it as is, then it's just a choice.



Agreed, but the resolution is the same. Only the lower spectrum changes with more power.


The Z1r is more efficient and sensitive than the other models, so it really works well on balanced.
Yes I agree that is become more monsterous/powerful with amp.
Not perfect for every genre though.
lol You surely have a lot of spare time. Of course everything I said was sarcastic, the entire 24-bit fad is completely ridiculous but sony keep making it a big deal. That's the ridiculous thing - that they keep pishing the hi-res stickers on all their gear while there is entry-level priced gear that measures a lot better and handles hi-res audio better.
And shigzeo is not a fanboy, he also bashed the newer ak daps and a lot of random gear and if you read his blog he liked the zx300. If anything he's a cowon fanboy but can anyone blame him. as they really push the limit of measuring and sound great to boot.
There is no "reasonable" explanatuon - it's all just plain old measurements that you can't refute.
The fact is that sony's DAPs are far from being even close to measuring well. Sony has that specific sweet sound that a lot of people like (myself included) but there are a lot of cheaper chi-fi DAPs that easily hang with sony nowadays
 
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