SONY NW-WM1Z / WM1A
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Aug 4, 2020 at 6:37 AM Post #42,421 of 45,723

WAmadeusM

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You can also see Sony lay out in DMP Z1 here for the clock, in perfectly symmetrical lay out and so close to the AK4497EQ. Sony is always With excellent engineering, the more you look at it :)
You can even see the ground points independently for each chip, and even the Bluetooth chip has it own ground. This is what Sony engineers mentioned , the multi ground paths that were carefully lay out and observed for the best performances
8346C887-3C0D-4700-AA55-AEE937CB32A5.jpeg63F03EDC-F035-41B4-8A7B-28109AF44208.jpeg

Hi @Whitigir and the rest of WM1'istas....this may be hidden in other 3000 pages....but curious about views on this very tech measure heavy review of the WM1Z.

I come at it with a hearing 'professional' perspective....this is techy......but as there has been pictures of pretty Sony boards....I thought why not.....especially as it's very critical about some of the consequences of that pretty board engineer - especially hiss for very sensitive IEMs. TBF in another review the A&K high ends also do this....

http://ohm-image.net/data/audio/rmaa-sony-nw-wm1z-24-bit

1596537160541.png



1596537040418.png


1596537365917.png
 
Aug 4, 2020 at 8:00 AM Post #42,422 of 45,723

Whitigir

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Hi @Whitigir and the rest of WM1'istas....this may be hidden in other 3000 pages....but curious about views on this very tech measure heavy review of the WM1Z.

I come at it with a hearing 'professional' perspective....this is techy......but as there has been pictures of pretty Sony boards....I thought why not.....especially as it's very critical about some of the consequences of that pretty board engineer - especially hiss for very sensitive IEMs. TBF in another review the A&K high ends also do this....

http://ohm-image.net/data/audio/rmaa-sony-nw-wm1z-24-bit






I think the guy just wanted to express that High Resolution means the ability to be able to get the measurements upto 120dB of Dynamic range on paper.

However, he failed to see that many recording for analog and or vinyl are only 70-75dB dynamic range, and together of the cap limit of microphones being at 70-75dB Max. Then came the CD and digital technologies that claimed to be able to reproduce up to 95dB.

So, practically speaking, every measurements of or claims of anything higher than 95dB is just to be another marketing BS. How will it sound and perform is another matter :wink:. Hence, practically speaking, the WM1Z is more than capable to be High-Res
 
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Aug 4, 2020 at 8:04 AM Post #42,423 of 45,723

Sonywalkmanuser

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I think the hiss is an intrinsic issue that affects all class D amp design. Sony has done steps to minimize the hiss. I think it boils down to how sensitive the iem is and also how sensitive is the ears of the listener to hiss. I can't hear hiss with my ZX507 and IER-M9.

People enjoyed the sound of the first few models, but some audiophiles detected a faint “hiss.” So we created the S-Master® HX digital amplifier (still used in Sony’s current line of Walkman high-res players). This improved digital amp provides low noise, high-quality sound and high-output power with a balanced output.

And that took care of the “hiss”?

Yes.

So how do you tackle a problem like that? How do you approach it?

Digital amps have an internal clock that is very important for output frequency. We improve the internal clock so it had a four times higher [switching speed]. So the second-generation amplifier didn’t have the extra treble noise. The amp was able to better handle the high-frequency side.

And the power supply is also very important. So we made the power supply larger and cut down on its noise, too.

https://www.crutchfield.com/S-GaUlJHOP5FQ/learn/interview-tomo-sato-sony-walkman.html
 
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Aug 4, 2020 at 8:58 AM Post #42,424 of 45,723

Whitigir

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It is not only about sensitivity, also the problems are usually isolated with multiple drives ear buds with crossover circuits. I would say it is more of the IeMS problem and shouldn’t be coming from Walkman. The only thing S-Master and Class D s at disadvantage is the way the class D is working, switching transistors mean more noises, and hence it would be best to use GAN FET, which I suspect will be coming with next gen Walkman
 
Aug 4, 2020 at 9:33 AM Post #42,425 of 45,723

Lawphin

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Hello,
I recently purchased the 1A. When I inspect the "full song details" (or something like that) on the device some songs -not all- show "Bit rate: Unknown". Nearly all songs are in Apple Lossless since I use iTunes for archive and tagging purposes. Edit: The bit rate shows fine on my PC in programs like foobar and obv. iTunes.

I couldn't find anything on this matter through Google or the search-bar. Does anybody know what is up with that?

Cheers
 
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Aug 4, 2020 at 10:39 AM Post #42,426 of 45,723

kova4a

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I think the guy just wanted to express that High Resolution means the ability to be able to get the measurements upto 120dB of Dynamic range on paper.

However, he failed to see that many recording for analog and or vinyl are only 70-75dB dynamic range, and together of the cap limit of microphones being at 70-75dB Max. Then came the CD and digital technologies that claimed to be able to reproduce up to 95dB.

So, practically speaking, every measurements of or claims of anything higher than 95dB is just to be another marketing BS. How will it sound and perform is another matter :wink:. Hence, practically speaking, the WM1Z is more than capable to be High-Res
Well, what he means is that the wm1z can only play hi-res formats but not actually reproduce them, so in reality it's pointless to waste space with hi-res files. The entire 24-bit hi-res audio vs CD quality is not a topic we should spam this thread with, but the fact that sony's dynamic range can only cover CD quality makes all those hi-res stickers sony likes to use just a marketing ploy. Technically that's like playing a 4k movie on a 1080p screen - you can play it but you'll still be seeing only 1080p resolution.
 
Aug 4, 2020 at 11:24 AM Post #42,427 of 45,723

Lookout57

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Hi @Whitigir and the rest of WM1'istas....this may be hidden in other 3000 pages....but curious about views on this very tech measure heavy review of the WM1Z.

I come at it with a hearing 'professional' perspective....this is techy......but as there has been pictures of pretty Sony boards....I thought why not.....especially as it's very critical about some of the consequences of that pretty board engineer - especially hiss for very sensitive IEMs. TBF in another review the A&K high ends also do this....

http://ohm-image.net/data/audio/rmaa-sony-nw-wm1z-24-bit

1596537160541.png


1596537040418.png

1596537365917.png
This sounds like it was written by an A&K fanboy to try to show that it's superior.

If you research there are numerous people who own both and say the Sony sounds better.

As we all know measurement versus actual sound reproduction are two totally different things. A good source on this is Jason Stoddard and Mike Moffat of Schitt Audio. There was multiple posts in this https://www.head-fi.org/threads/sch...f-the-worlds-most-improbable-start-up.701900/ where they talked about how when designing products they would strive to build something that measured great and end up determining that it sounded like crap. Once they backed down from perfect measurements the sound improved.

So take this post with a truckload of salt.
 
Aug 4, 2020 at 11:58 AM Post #42,428 of 45,723

Redcarmoose

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Hi @Whitigir and the rest of WM1'istas....this may be hidden in other 3000 pages....but curious about views on this very tech measure heavy review of the WM1Z.

I come at it with a hearing 'professional' perspective....this is techy......but as there has been pictures of pretty Sony boards....I thought why not.....especially as it's very critical about some of the consequences of that pretty board engineer - especially hiss for very sensitive IEMs. TBF in another review the A&K high ends also do this....

http://ohm-image.net/data/audio/rmaa-sony-nw-wm1z-24-bit







Nathan Wright

Interesting, the reviewer has been a Head-Fi member forever like me. He has a YouTube channel and also writes reviews. He actually has a Sony DAP or two, last time I checked. You can see his photography in the “Post Your Photography” thread; that’s where I know him from.

https://www.head-fi.org/members/shigzeo.41964/
 
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Aug 4, 2020 at 12:01 PM Post #42,429 of 45,723

Whitigir

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Well, what he means is that the wm1z can only play hi-res formats but not actually reproduce them, so in reality it's pointless to waste space with hi-res files. The entire 24-bit hi-res audio vs CD quality is not a topic we should spam this thread with, but the fact that sony's dynamic range can only cover CD quality makes all those hi-res stickers sony likes to use just a marketing ploy. Technically that's like playing a 4k movie on a 1080p screen - you can play it but you'll still be seeing only 1080p resolution.
High resolutions have always been Moot points. All devices have to pass lowpass and high pass filter to warranty the safe hearing ranges of 20-20Khz. This is to secure the safety of many beings...pets, human....etc.

Despite the claims of high resolution, there can be no recording to be able to achieve higher than 95dB dynamic range....due to Microphone technologies limitations

High Resolutions at it core technologies only mean that without the filters....technically the device, a player, a DAC chip or a headphones diaphragms is capable of the reproduction or the vibrations and frequencies well beyond 20-20Khz without destructively destroying itself. This is it

However, when you are going into producing the product, it have to be in the safe range of 20-20Khz period

The techniques of oversampling and sigma delta have allowed to squeeze better frequencies reproductions, and that is DSD64 and or higher. Those are noises of random order being injected into the algorithms to reconstruct those frequencies, but they too will pass over filters in the algorithms to trim away out of the safe range frequencies.... and if the DSP and algorithms are not enough, the high and low pass filter in physical form of an IC or resistors and caps array are going to take care of that job in order to keep everything safe

With those understandings, a person, can experiments with their own system by removing those filters and utilize a software that allow DSD with ultra frequencies to pass by and play back on a system that is not capable of high res....it is fun to see magic smoke and or burned out tweeters....and it does happen :wink:

So then, is High Resolutions really a Moot ? Or it really isn’t ? Depends on your perspective. But being capable is all that anything needs to be in order to get the sticker and the qualifications, and Sony WM1Z or other Sony devices (With the sticker) are totally capable
 
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Aug 4, 2020 at 1:13 PM Post #42,430 of 45,723

bflat

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I am wondering if the S-Master has an FPGA chip as part of it, part of the whole technology or not?

No it does not. Sony has the scale and investment dollars to go with ASIC DACs instead of FPGA. ASICs are superior in every performance aspect of chip design. The only advantage FPGA has is potential reprogramming of the DAC code. However, that would also open up the risk of proprietary DAC code getting out to the public domain. That is why Chord has never offered a code update for their FPGA.

I'm sure Sony used FPGA chips during prototyping stage, but once the DAC code was production ready, they went ASIC.
 
Aug 4, 2020 at 1:36 PM Post #42,431 of 45,723

kova4a

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High resolutions have always been Moot points. All devices have to pass lowpass and high pass filter to warranty the safe hearing ranges of 20-20Khz. This is to secure the safety of many beings...pets, human....etc.

Despite the claims of high resolution, there can be no recording to be able to achieve higher than 95dB dynamic range....due to Microphone technologies limitations

High Resolutions at it core technologies only mean that without the filters....technically the device, a player, a DAC chip or a headphones diaphragms is capable of the reproduction or the vibrations and frequencies well beyond 20-20Khz without destructively destroying itself. This is it

However, when you are going into producing the product, it have to be in the safe range of 20-20Khz period

The techniques of oversampling and sigma delta have allowed to squeeze better frequencies reproductions, and that is DSD64 and or higher. Those are noises of random order being injected into the algorithms to reconstruct those frequencies, but they too will pass over filters in the algorithms to trim away out of the safe range frequencies.... and if the DSP and algorithms are not enough, the high and low pass filter in physical form of an IC or resistors and caps array are going to take care of that job in order to keep everything safe

With those understandings, a person, can experiments with their own system by removing those filters and utilize a software that allow DSD with ultra frequencies to pass by and play back on a system that is not capable of high res....it is fun to see magic smoke and or burned out tweeters....and it does happen :wink:

So then, is High Resolutions really a Moot ? Or it really isn’t ? Depends on your perspective. But being capable is all that anything needs to be in order to get the sticker and the qualifications, and Sony WM1Z or other Sony devices (With the sticker) are totally capable
See, that's what I was trying to avoid - discussions about hi-res. And honestly, if you bring up microphone limitations regarding the dynamic range that can be captured, the same goes for the frequency response regardless of any filters as most professional recording mics attenuate the sound above 16khz, so, outside of software generated sounds, music doesn't exceed 20khz, which makes the entire hi-res discussion a moot point for anyone but sound engineers who get more information to work with.
 
Aug 4, 2020 at 1:41 PM Post #42,432 of 45,723

Whitigir

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See, that's what I was trying to avoid - discussions about hi-res. And honestly, if you bring up microphone limitations regarding the dynamic range that can be captured, the same goes for the frequency response regardless of any filters as most professional recording mics attenuate the sound above 16khz, so, outside of software generated sounds, music doesn't exceed 20khz, which makes the entire hi-res discussion a moot point for anyone but sound engineers who get more information to work with.
On this front, I agreed, but nevertheless, wm1Z is perfectly capable, and so it has the sticker :)
 
Aug 4, 2020 at 1:44 PM Post #42,433 of 45,723

Whitigir

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No it does not. Sony has the scale and investment dollars to go with ASIC DACs instead of FPGA. ASICs are superior in every performance aspect of chip design. The only advantage FPGA has is potential reprogramming of the DAC code. However, that would also open up the risk of proprietary DAC code getting out to the public domain. That is why Chord has never offered a code update for their FPGA.

I'm sure Sony used FPGA chips during prototyping stage, but once the DAC code was production ready, they went ASIC.
Is that the SOC that I mentioned about ? The DMP Z1 uses the same one
 
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Aug 4, 2020 at 1:58 PM Post #42,434 of 45,723

bflat

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Is that the SOC that I mentioned about ? The DMP Z1 uses the same one

SOC or "system on a chip" generally refers to the combo of CPU, I/O controller, GPU and other components necessary to run the OS and apps. SOC are ASIC due to the need for minimizing chip size and power consumption. I am assuming the original question was in regards to the S Master chip which for sure is ASIC.
 
Aug 4, 2020 at 2:01 PM Post #42,435 of 45,723

Redcarmoose

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Well, what he means is that the wm1z can only play hi-res formats but not actually reproduce them, so in reality it's pointless to waste space with hi-res files. The entire 24-bit hi-res audio vs CD quality is not a topic we should spam this thread with, but the fact that sony's dynamic range can only cover CD quality makes all those hi-res stickers sony likes to use just a marketing ploy. Technically that's like playing a 4k movie on a 1080p screen - you can play it but you'll still be seeing only 1080p resolution.
See, that's what I was trying to avoid - discussions about hi-res. And honestly, if you bring up microphone limitations regarding the dynamic range that can be captured, the same goes for the frequency response regardless of any filters as most professional recording mics attenuate the sound above 16khz, so, outside of software generated sounds, music doesn't exceed 20khz, which makes the entire hi-res discussion a moot point for anyone but sound engineers who get more information to work with.

To the contrary. Your posts are exactly not avoiding the hi-res discussion. They are instigating it, in some wild form of backwards forwardness.
 
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