[Duncan]

It seems that we agree to disagree on this one...

I'm bringing this conversation away from its original thread, because this discussion is not really related to the original context...

Basically, for those that haven't picked up on this... there seems to be an argument going on about exactly how many different designs of 'Bio-Cellulose' diaphragm there are in the Sony line up...

Well, we know that all the four models listed use 50mm drive units, with the bio-cellulose diaphragm... but, do we know any more than that?

Oh well... here goes

 

[bootman]

Here is a snipet of one of the rare CD-1700 reviews.

Quote:

Few printed details accompanied this headphone, which is a very recent introduction. I was told however, that the MDR-CD1700 is derived from the flagship MDR-R10 King, which had large, sealed capsule surrounds hand-carved from an exotic wood, fitted internally with a bio-cellulose diaphragm 'hand-made' by acetic bacteria. Despite their enormous cost (£2,500), these were a moving-coil headphone, as the MDR-CD1700 is. It echoes its predecessor's shape and reprises the 'R10's biocellulose and 'Vectran' diaphragms.

This is from HiFi Choice.

http://www.hifichoice.co.uk/archive/...rintreview.htm

 

[bootman]

R10 specs

Model Sony-phone
System Dynamic, circum-aural
Driver unit 50mm diameter; dome-type bio-celluose diaphragm
Impedance 40 ohms
Sensitivity 100dB/mW
Rated power: 300mW
Power handling capacity: 1000mW
Frequency response: 20-20,000Hz
Cord: Pure silk covering 6N-LC-OFC (99.9999%)
3 meters (approx. loft.)
Plug: Rhodium base, gold-metal plating OFC Standard stereo plug
Weight (w/o cord): 400g

CD1700 specs

Type: Closed, Dynamic
Driver Unit: 50mm diameter
Diaphragm: Bio-cellulose
Magnet: Higher-power Neodymium
Headband: Self-adjusting
Impedance: 32 ohms
Sensitivity: 106dB/mW
Frequency Response: 5 - 30,000Hz
Power Handling Capacity: 1000mW
Plug: Gold-plated UniMatch plug
Cord: LC-OFC Class 1, single-sided, 11 1/2' (3.5m)
12 oz (325g)

CD2000 specs

Type Closed, Dynamic
Drive Unit 50mm Dome type
Diaphragm Vectran-combined bio-cellulose
Magnet Neodymium
Impedance 32 ohms (@1kHz)
Sensitivity 106 dB
Power Handling Capacity 1500mW
Frequency Response 5-30,000Hz
Cord LC-OFC Litz cord, detachable, single-sided, 11 1/2 feet (3.5m)
Plug Gold-plated, straight stereo mini plug

CD3000 specs

Type Circum-aural, dynamic
Driver unit 50mm diameter, CCAW
Impedance 32 ohms
Sensitivity 104 dB/mW
Rated power 500mW
Power Handling Capacity 100mW
Frequency Response 20-20,000Hz
Cord Length 9.8 ft (3.0m)
Plug Self-cleaning, gold-plated stereo UniMatch®


The last two were taken from the Sony site.
The first two were from the web so I can't vouch for their accuracy.

 

[Duncan]

Thanks for the research Bootman...

So, that kind of proves that they're ALL different, the nearest match being the CD1700 & CD2000 except for the power handling...

Case closed... or is it?

 

[markl]

The R10 is a limited edition hand-made product that pre-dates the 1700 3000 and 2000. Its sound has *some* similarities with the CD3K (most notably the realistic way drum hits are portrayed) but beyond that the resemblance ends.

Apparently Tyll himself, having at last *heard* the R10 has concluded it is his "new favorite headphone", this info via Hirsch. As we know Tyll hates the CD3K and had previously speculated (without any first-hand knowledge) that the R10 was the CD3K in a different package. Apparently, his ears now have told him otherwise. How do you go from *hating* the "same" driver to listing it as your favorite headphone? Conclusion: they are not the same.

The CD3K et al are mass produced assembly line style probably in Korea/Taiwan/China, while the R10 again is hand built in Japan. As I've said in another thread, they are constructed of entirely different materials (quoting myself):

1: Different enclosure material
2. Different sized and shaped enclosures
3. Magnesium assembly (not plastic as on CD3K)
4. Leather pads vs. pleather
5. Different shaped/thickness pads
6. Different cable/cord
7. Assembled by hand vs. mass-produced on assembly line
8. Different driver (this is speculation but the R10 pre-dates the CD3K and is hand built in small lots and safe to assume the driver itself is different)


markl

 

[kelly]

I don't know anything about this stuff so I'm just going to say something off color, take it off topic and piss everyone off. (Kidding!!)

What I wonder is this...

I know the W2002 and R10 are not alike and I don't mean to imply that they are by saying this. However, the situation seems similar.

The W2002 and W100 are said to have the same identical drivers in both headphones (as well as another titanium AT can, I think?). And yet... they sound completely different. I personally don't think that much of the W100 but I think that's irrelevent here--even people who have heard both and love the W100 have said that they don't really sound similar at all.

What this may point to is that the material (ie, the wood) really does matter more than we think in closed headphones.

The wood in the R10 is a very fine wood--not due to its rarity but I'd believe it's a fine wood because it's been said to have been used in very expensive violins. I tend to think that's not for nothing.

 

[markl]

"I don't know anything about this stuff..."

You can say that again...

"The W2002 and W100 are said to have the same identical drivers in both headphones (as well as another titanium AT can, I think?"

Where did you get the info that the W100 has the same driver as the W2002? To my knowledge, AT only claims that the titanium phone has the same driver....

"What this may point to is that the material (ie, the wood) really does matter more than we think in closed headphones. "

Except for the fact that the W2002 and the W100 BOTH have wooden enclosures.... Maybe the SHAPE of the enclosure has something to do with it...

But isn't there more to a "driver" than the diaphram? I belive so. I'm no speaker engineer, but if you look behind any speaker diaphram, you'll see all kinds of other components. Those too can have an affect on the sound methinks...

markl

 

[gloco]

Sometimes i feel that were not getting the full picture regarding the process of developing the drivers of a headphone and the difference they may be using in intricate parts that are not mentioned to the public.

Anyone else feel the same?

 

[kelly]

Quote:

Originally posted by markl "The W2002 and W100 are said to have the same identical drivers in both headphones (as well as another titanium AT can, I think?" Where did you get the info that the W100 has the same driver as the W2002? To my knowledge, AT only claims that the titanium phone has the same driver....

I dunno, probably some AT fanatic.

Seriously, I don't remember who told me that. If you're saying it's not true then it probably isn't. I just remember how surprised I was hearing the W100 after I'd expected them to share some characteristics.

I definitely agree with gloco that we don't know enough about how headphones are developed, much less how the drivers are aligned. It's ironic given the vast wealthy of detailed knowledge about amplifiers the forum possesses.

 

[KR...]

Quote:

Its sound has *some* similarities with the CD3K (most notably the realistic way drum hits are portrayed) but beyond that the resemblance ends.

I sure hope not, from what I heard at the show.
However, after reading more reviews from the meets, I am starting to think that the 3000's there were broken, since the biggest flaw that so many owners complain about was not why I thought so ill will of them.

The 3000's at the meet wasn't bright at all, but sounded dark and extremely muffled.

 

[kelly]

Quote:

Originally posted by KR... The 3000's at the meet wasn't bright at all, but sounded dark and extremely muffled.

I think muffled and "reverby" get exchanged somewhat and that is a way I've heard them described. The one on the HeadRoom tour is the only CD3000 I've heard thus far.

 

[markl]

When the Tour reaches the Bay Area of CA, I will certainly be giving Headroom's CD3K a listen and will report if I think they're "broken" or "defective".

Of course, everyone has listened to them hooked up the Headroom amps, so you know...


markl

 

[KR...]

Quote:

Of course, everyone has listened to them hooked up the Headroom amps, so you know...

That's not true, Jude hooked them up to many of the high end amps, not just the Headroom ones, which are awesome amps, IMHO.

markl, do you own the CD3000? Can you bring it to the meet and compare your CD3000 to the one that they have?

And that goes to any other happy CD3000 owner who is planing to go to a meet.

 

[Hirsch]

dammit, I didn't listen to the CD3K last night.

However, I've never heard mine sound dark. It's a bright sucker, usually. If I've got the ZOTL pretty much dead on for the HP-1, the HD-600 will sound slightly dark, while the CD3000 will be slightly bright. The three headphones seem to lie along a "brightness" continuum in that respect. With the SHA-1 or RA-1, the CD3K is bright to the point of unlistenable (to me), so dark as a descriptor comes as a surprize. Muffled is also a weird one. That headphone has great precision and detail. Something strange is happening here...

 

[markl]

"markl, do you own the CD3000? Can you bring it to the meet and compare your CD3000 to the one that they have?
And that goes to any other happy CD3000 owner who is planing to go to a meet."

No, I don't currently have it. But to call the CD3K "dark" or "recessed" or any of the other comments is highly suspect to me. It indicates something's not quite right.

The only complaint about the CD3K I'd expect is "it's too bright"...

markl