Sonarworks Headphone Calibration software
Oct 16, 2017 at 12:45 PM Post #901 of 1,377
From my understanding they take an average of what they measure.
You are correct. I just wanted to point out that if you are looking for accuracy (not something that just sounds better), you should be aware that "accuracy" changes over time. What was "accurate" one year ago, is not "accurate" today and most likely will not be "accurate" one year after. If there is such a big deviation between the same type of headphones, maybe they should not offer averaged calibration profiles for them at all?

It would be interesting to send them a set of headphones for calibration, then wait for some time and send them again. I would be curious to see how accurately both of those calibration profiles match.
 
Oct 16, 2017 at 4:57 PM Post #902 of 1,377
You are correct. I just wanted to point out that if you are looking for accuracy (not something that just sounds better), you should be aware that "accuracy" changes over time. What was "accurate" one year ago, is not "accurate" today and most likely will not be "accurate" one year after. If there is such a big deviation between the same type of headphones, maybe they should not offer averaged calibration profiles for them at all?

It would be interesting to send them a set of headphones for calibration, then wait for some time and send them again. I would be curious to see how accurately both of those calibration profiles match.
you're looking at the wrong cause here.
-first of all, there is no absolute of accurate headphone signature. part of the signature needs to compensate for your own head and body(parts that are usually interacting with the sound but not when wearing a headphone), so while there absolutely exists a flat frequency response for you, there is no evidence that it will sound neutral to me. now while this may seem desperate, we're still all humans, we tend to have 2 ears more or less at the same place and very few people have a pyramid instead of a head. the differences will amount to a few dB in some places, but in general the big lines will fit most people. I'm just saying you need to be realistic in your expectations of what a neutral curve really offers.

-secondly, if you took 5 pairs of that headphone and measured them, you would get several dBs of variations somewhere. so of course as they get more pairs to measure, they average the "average response". even left and right drivers will almost always have some small variations of a few dBs unless the manufacturer makes some efforts to limit that specifically(and some do).

-third, pads with time will inevitably alter the frequency response, this is the one sure and most significant(as in audible) aspect of headphones changing over time. I don't know if they make their average curve based only on new pairs, or if they include the pairs sent by customers, but whatever they do, changes do occur over time (until you replace the pads ^_^). but that's only part of the fun stuff changing a signature a little. how you place the headphone on your head for example. if you have a lot of hair, glasses, a big head creating a stronger clamp, and of course what signature comes out of your very own pair. while all those can amount to very little sometimes, they are variables Sonarwork can't control when they give you an average curve. and at best they can measure your headphone, match the drivers, and remove part of the uncertainty. which is pretty significant given how wrong most headphones can be when it comes to FR.

the way I see it, when you use the average curve, you trust the brand. if you get an old Audeze headphone(apparently they have improved stability on the new models), from one pair to the next you never knew what would happen. but if you get a hd800, from one pair to the next there will be very little variation because Sennheiser is being more German than a German engineering caricature on those pairs. so using an average for that headphone will be a good deal more reliable when it comes to achieving Sonarwork ideal target response. else there is custom measurement.
 
Oct 16, 2017 at 6:18 PM Post #903 of 1,377
Did I miss a memo? Sonarworks Reference 4...how long has this been out? Differences between 3 and 4?

I missed the memo too Matt. Luckily I've just upgraded to High Sierra and now SW Ref 3 no longer works in Vox. I contacted support and they got back to me tonight suggesting I try SW Ref 4 and see how that goes.

It's working fine and I like the Systemwide aspect too, although I'll have to wait for daylight before I really try it out on my speakers. One odd thing is that the difference between SW Ref 4 on & off is much less obvious than it was with SW Ref 3. Something has changed in the profile. I'll be damned if I'm not hearing more detail now though & the bass seems to slam just that wee bit harder. That could be me though.

The only thing is I think they're going to charge me for this & I don't know if I'm entirely comfortable about that since I was perfectly happy with SW Ref 3.
 
Oct 16, 2017 at 6:24 PM Post #904 of 1,377
I just got SW Ref 4 installed. Early impressions for me are that the effect of the average profile is a tad more subtle. I need more time to listen though to make a true determination.
 
Oct 16, 2017 at 6:33 PM Post #905 of 1,377
I missed the memo too Matt. Luckily I've just upgraded to High Sierra and now SW Ref 3 no longer works in Vox. I contacted support and they got back to me tonight suggesting I try SW Ref 4 and see how that goes.

It's working fine and I like the Systemwide aspect too, although I'll have to wait for daylight before I really try it out on my speakers. One odd thing is that the difference between SW Ref 4 on & off is much less obvious than it was with SW Ref 3. Something has changed in the profile. I'll be damned if I'm not hearing more detail now though & the bass seems to slam just that wee bit harder. That could be me though.

The only thing is I think they're going to charge me for this & I don't know if I'm entirely comfortable about that since I was perfectly happy with SW Ref 3.
could it just be the default filter option? they mention no latency option on the 4, sometime moving from FIR to IIR and apparently they also have a mix could have some small impact on positioning impression .
didn't test so I'm talking out of my butt here about the general idea of changing digital filters in EQ. see this as an idea more than a fact ^_^.
 
Oct 16, 2017 at 6:49 PM Post #906 of 1,377
I don't see anyting about NO latency but there IS a low latency option which is enabled by default. In this respect it's exactly the same as Ref 3. The sound is definitely more, well, more. In fact it does give something of the character of the HD 650 back I think. Ref 3 was a pretty severe EQ imo. Ref 4 seems less 'flat'.
 
Oct 17, 2017 at 3:41 AM Post #907 of 1,377
Sorry about not announcing Ref4 here, I'm afraid my MOT status prevents me from posting any commercial news.

Anyways in short - Ref 4 plug-in has zero latency mode* and we've added extra profiles and upgraded a number of the old ones. The changes in average profiles shouldn't be too drastic and were mostly introduced due to increased number of measured samples. @groovyd and others are safe - individual calibration still is the most accurate choice and hasn't changed.

*zero latency plug-in means true zero latency if there's no latency introduced by the plug-in wrapper. AFAIK there are no true zero latency wrappers out there. That's why Systemwide still has no zero latency.
 
Oct 17, 2017 at 4:10 AM Post #908 of 1,377
This upgrade procedure is a mess. As far as I can tell upgrading from Ref 3 to Ref 4 + Systemwide should be free but when I put in my Ref 3 license key it's asking me for €19. Getting tired of this crap.

Edit - I get it now. I'm actually expected to pay €19 to retain exactly the same features I had before my OS upgrade. An unscrupulous company might use the OS update as an excuse to dig more money out of their loyal customers whereas what they should really be doing is ensuring their existing customers are able to continue using a product they bought in good faith.
 
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Oct 17, 2017 at 8:10 AM Post #909 of 1,377
This upgrade procedure is a mess. As far as I can tell upgrading from Ref 3 to Ref 4 + Systemwide should be free but when I put in my Ref 3 license key it's asking me for €19. Getting tired of this crap.

Edit - I get it now. I'm actually expected to pay €19 to retain exactly the same features I had before my OS upgrade. An unscrupulous company might use the OS update as an excuse to dig more money out of their loyal customers whereas what they should really be doing is ensuring their existing customers are able to continue using a product they bought in good faith.

Wow. I don't normally respond to rants here. But for you I'll make an exception.

1. No one forced you to upgrade in the first place. If you feel that the "features are exactly the same" why would you upgrade?. Stick with what you've got and find some happiness.

2. Do you have any idea how difficult it is to properly code and release any piece of software? And to do it across multiple OS platforms, DAW's and wrappers? Do you REALLY think that any error that you get at this point in the process is an effort to get more money from you? Seriously I'm asking. They are attempting to make a FREE TRIAL available for YOU, FOR FREE AT NO COST. So that you don't have to pay if you don't like it. That is completely on their development nickel as a courtesy to their potential customers.

3. Unscrupulous company? Rudewolf represents his company well here. He is active in the community, listens and responds. This is the kind of MOT that I look for here.

4. Now your behavior, honestly it was a hissy fit. And from a member who's been here since 2005. Surely you can make better contributions than this and represent yourself and the community in a more professional way.
 
Oct 17, 2017 at 1:51 PM Post #910 of 1,377
Actually I don't think it's worth shelling out 19$ for the upgrade, if all you do is listen via wrapped plug-in or just use Systemwide. The Reference 4 series has been and will be primarily oriented towards professionals. For them zero latency means a lot and then the upgrade makes much more sense.

I'd say - wait until Q1 2018 ends when we plan upgrading Systemwide. Or maybe by that time True-Fi turns into something more interesting for serious listeners. After I finish most of the stuff with Ref4 launch, I will dedicate myself into making True-Fi more exciting for the discerning head-fier. As it is, it's very decent, but I have mixed feelings about not contributing more to that project. I am, however, very hopeful that I can understand what you guys would want from it and maybe throw in some surprises as well!
 
Oct 18, 2017 at 2:52 AM Post #911 of 1,377
What's new?

Reference 4 introduces zero latency to the already impressive feature list Sonarworks users have grown to love and rely on. No extra latency means that Reference 4 plug-in can be used for vocal and instrument tracking. Finally musicians who demand instant response on their input will be able to fully rely on their monitoring.

https://sonarworks.com/blog/reference-4-out-now/

Sonarworks Reference 4 Headphone Edition now feature Systemwide, making it an even better value.

Reference 4 now supports 101 headphones
The updated profiles are marked in bold, so if you’ve been using them, please upgrade to Reference 4 or just update your Reference 3 software.

https://sonarworks.com/blog/reference-4-now-supports-101-headphones/


Had a bit of problem loading Reference 4 on Windows 10 Insider Preview initially. I used Revo Uninstaller Pro to uninstall my 'bought' True Fi and Ref 3. Loaded her up and she is running smoothly. No hiccups so far. With Ref 3, I always had to play with the software and Systemwide - So the last 3 months, I just used True-Fi.
 
Oct 18, 2017 at 8:01 AM Post #912 of 1,377
Wow. I don't normally respond to rants here. But for you I'll make an exception.

1. No one forced you to upgrade in the first place. If you feel that the "features are exactly the same" why would you upgrade?. Stick with what you've got and find some happiness.

2. Do you have any idea how difficult it is to properly code and release any piece of software? And to do it across multiple OS platforms, DAW's and wrappers? Do you REALLY think that any error that you get at this point in the process is an effort to get more money from you? Seriously I'm asking. They are attempting to make a FREE TRIAL available for YOU, FOR FREE AT NO COST. So that you don't have to pay if you don't like it. That is completely on their development nickel as a courtesy to their potential customers.

3. Unscrupulous company? Rudewolf represents his company well here. He is active in the community, listens and responds. This is the kind of MOT that I look for here.

4. Now your behavior, honestly it was a hissy fit. And from a member who's been here since 2005. Surely you can make better contributions than this and represent yourself and the community in a more professional way.

OK, hang on. Before this gets out of hand I need to point out that my last post doesn't supply all the details, my bad.

First off, on Sunday night my Ref 3 was working perfectly in Vox. On Monday it wouldn't load. My Mac had updated to High Sierra in the interim and now Sonarworks Ref 3 won't load. Fair enough, says I, I'll see if Sonarworks have a workaround. After a couple of emails with Support it was suggested I try to install the free trial of Sonarworks Ref 4 to see if that worked. It did. But now I'm in the position that if I want to continue using software that worked perfectly well on Sunday I need to hand over another €19. That is my issue.

And yes, if Sonarworks were to say they were working on a solution I wouldn't have aired this issue here.
 
Oct 18, 2017 at 8:28 AM Post #913 of 1,377
OK, hang on. Before this gets out of hand I need to point out that my last post doesn't supply all the details, my bad.

First off, on Sunday night my Ref 3 was working perfectly in Vox. On Monday it wouldn't load. My Mac had updated to High Sierra in the interim and now Sonarworks Ref 3 won't load. Fair enough, says I, I'll see if Sonarworks have a workaround. After a couple of emails with Support it was suggested I try to install the free trial of Sonarworks Ref 4 to see if that worked. It did. But now I'm in the position that if I want to continue using software that worked perfectly well on Sunday I need to hand over another €19. That is my issue.

And yes, if Sonarworks were to say they were working on a solution I wouldn't have aired this issue here.

Fair enough. It's just that I have issues with public rants before people make an honest effort to resolve the problem themselves (sometimes it's your setup and not the software) and trying to work out a resolution with the manufacturer. I also had an issue with Ref 4 and SW helped me work it out in less than a day.
 
Oct 18, 2017 at 8:36 AM Post #914 of 1,377
Maybe of interest - from the new Reference 4 trial:

Sonarworks Reference 4 Headphone Edition User Manual

https://www.sonarworks.com/reference/tutorials/headphone-edition-manual

What is Sonarworks Reference system?
-Headphone plugin
-Systemwide

Using the Reference DAW plugin
Using Reference Systemwide
Troubleshooting
I can't seem to open the user manual. What file type is it? Is it print or just pictures of print? I only ask because I'd like to read it before trying again to use the software. Hoping Ref.4 might be a little easier to get up and running.
 
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Oct 18, 2017 at 8:50 AM Post #915 of 1,377
Fair enough. It's just that I have issues with public rants before people make an honest effort to resolve the problem themselves (sometimes it's your setup and not the software) and trying to work out a resolution with the manufacturer. I also had an issue with Ref 4 and SW helped me work it out in less than a day.

I agree mate, I'm the same myself. This has been a fiasco all around because I've been without the internet for 23 hours in the middle of all this. Not a happy bunny. For the record, I still don't know what the deal here is. If they're asking €19 and that also gets me Systemwide then I'd consider that a good deal. However if all I'm getting is essentially the same as I had a few days ago then I'm not going to pay up twice.
 

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