[Zenvota]

How did you "mount" (if this is the right English word; I am from Austria) your black curtains?

When I'm home from work later Ill take some pictures. It's weird =p

Despite the equalizer settings (slightly lower bass and treble) and VSS, the loudness peaks are still very uncomfortable. I need some kind of compressor or limiter. Here is an example of those loudness peaks (I currently play this game); the ambient sound (wind, footsteps etc.) is very low and the action sounds (like "sword hits") are extremely loud:

When I play that video, ambient sounds are at a natural level, and the level of action effects, while louder, are comfortable and immersive. My first suggestion would be to look in the audio settings of the game, there may be separate volume sliders for ambient effects, action, music, dialogue etc. that may help you get a more comfortable mix.

Second, the initial eq was more of an introduction, and more accurate eq may help further, without the use of limiters and compressors. I advise avoiding using those because the typically ruin harmonics. I only ever use Audysseys Dynamic Volume on my surround system late at night on movies with wide dynamic range, NEVER on my headphone systems. That being said I don't have a good knowledge of those plugins and wouldnt be able to suggest anything ;[

So, here's an example correct equalization on a pair of Hifiman HE-400i:


So above is the Innerfidelity measurement. Below is the equalization in EQAPO.
You can see the rise start at about 1800hz and completely flatten out the response, with even a bit of roll-off over 4khz.

So you used these?
-Peaking filter, 3khz, -8db, q factor 2.5. ..... Change this to q1.5 and -10db
-High shelf, 5.5 khz -12db ... Try changing this one to 4.5khz and -15db
-and a low shelf at 120hz -4db

 

[Zenvota]

Great setup! "Light control" seems to be really important. I also have this problem now that I own an OLED with really great image quality. I bought black "theater curtains" to get some light control in my room, but am still not satisfied with the solution. Getting a good screen (TV or projector) is only one half of getting a good image. How did you "mount" (if this is the right English word; I am from Austria) your black curtains? I just throw them over the furniture at the moment, because its a normal living room, not a dedicated "home theater room", but that is a less-than-ideal solution...

Ok so, I think my "curtains" are a bit sifferent from how you're mounting yours. I have 2 pulldown shades on either side of the screen that block light coming from the sides. projection light control, controlling not only light in the room, lamps windows etc., but light bouncing off the screen, into the room, and back to the screen.

So I have 7 lamps on wireless remotes, 3 big lamps which are for fully illuminating the room. 2 lamps "behind(relative to the screen)" pulldown shades that we use when we're watching brighter shows cartoons/anime/tv/YouTube, and 2 small lights buried in the corners for when we don't feel like being in total darkness.

I put black cloth on the ceiling to control light hitting the ceiling and back to the screen. The one window has a blackout curtain. The walls are a darker color and theres alot of black and grey furniture.

The screen is a dark grey with a gain layer which does a good job of offseting some of the less than perfect room conditions as well.

In your case with the oled, I'd imagine reflections are the biggest challenge, which is difficult as the tv dumps light all over the viewing area and then you see yourself in the tv right? crapshoot lol thats one thing I love about projection, no reflections. Between the screen, light control, and once I switch to a 5040ub or something similar my black levels are going to be pretty inky despite not having a dedicated room. If you give me a room layout i may be able to make some suggestions.

So everything here is pretty rough drafty I've been changing this room constantly over the last 3 years and I'm finally happy with the layout and function so now I have to work on aesthetics lol. I also have a 4 way manual masking system for 2.35(movies cinemascope etc.) and 1.33(old anime and tv shows) content Xd google it heh

 

[FLIR]

Ok so, I think my "curtains" are a bit sifferent from how you're mounting yours. I have 2 pulldown shades on either side of the screen that block light coming from the sides. projection light control, controlling not only light in the room, lamps windows etc., but light bouncing off the screen, into the room, and back to the screen.

So I have 7 lamps on wireless remotes, 3 big lamps which are for fully illuminating the room. 2 lamps "behind(relative to the screen)" pulldown shades that we use when we're watching brighter shows cartoons/anime/tv/YouTube, and 2 small lights buried in the corners for when we don't feel like being in total darkness.

I put black cloth on the ceiling to control light hitting the ceiling and back to the screen. The one window has a blackout curtain. The walls are a darker color and theres alot of black and grey furniture.

The screen is a dark grey with a gain layer which does a good job of offseting some of the less than perfect room conditions as well.

So everything here is pretty rough drafty I've been changing this room constantly over the last 3 years and I'm finally happy with the layout and function so now I have to work on aesthetics lol. I also have a 4 way manual masking system for 2.35(movies cinemascope etc.) and 1.33(old anime and tv shows) content Xd google it heh

Wow, thanks, now this is what people call a "home cinema"! The pulldown shades on the sides of the screen are great. One day I will have a room like that and I will watch my favorite movies in such a setup...

In your case with the oled, I'd imagine reflections are the biggest challenge, which is difficult as the tv dumps light all over the viewing area and then you see yourself in the tv right?

The OLED (LG C7) has some downsides, like vertical banding in dark grey areas, but the "anti-glare", "anti-reflective" coating does a very good job. I have never had any problems with reflections, even when sitting only 1,5m away in a dark room while watching 4K HDR content. Even in daylight, when the TV is turned off, the screen itself looks completely, almost unnatural black. This excellent coating was a pleasant surprise.

However: The biggest problem is still the light that comes from the screen, even in dark scenes with only tiny light sources (like a torch in "The Revenant") the room gets lighten up (only the screen stays black thanks to the coating). I always cover my legs with one of those black theater curtains and everything in the room that is around the screen, I don't want to see my room, my legs, or the wall behind the TV... "complete immersion"

Thanks a lot for your other post about the equalizer settings, I will try those tomorrow, when I have more time and can sit down unhurriedly. But maybe I will just have to invest more money in better, more natural sounding HPs, they need to be closed back (sadly), because I live in a loud environment and want privacy and isolation when I put them on (the Beyerdynamic 770s isolate quite well). I have seen that you own "Mrspeakers Alpha Prime", I have heard so much about those, but they are/were really expensive...

 

[Zenvota]

Wow, thanks, now this is what people call a "home cinema"! The pulldown shades on the sides of the screen are great. One day I will have a room like that and I will watch my favorite movies in such a setup...

It's a bedroom lol we didnt want to clutter up the living room with all the equipment, it's a weird room but its pretty great.

The OLED (LG C7) has some downsides, like vertical banding in dark grey areas, but the "anti-glare", "anti-reflective" coating does a very good job. I have never had any problems with reflections, even when sitting only 1,5m away in a dark room while watching 4K HDR content. Even in daylight, when the TV is turned off, the screen itself looks completely, almost unnatural black. This excellent coating was a pleasant surprise.

However: The biggest problem is still the light that comes from the screen, even in dark scenes with only tiny light sources (like a torch in "The Revenant") the room gets lighten up (only the screen stays black thanks to the coating). I always cover my legs with one of those black theater curtains and everything in the room that is around the screen, I don't want to see my room, my legs, or the wall behind the TV... "complete immersion"

The screen has some grey uniformity issues? That's strange I thought OLEDs had excellent uniformity. That's great to know about the glossy instead of semi glossy finish doesnt show reflections, really cool. I don't have any experience with OLEDs just the semi glossy mid range samsungs.

Oh, I see... complete immersion, lol ya I don't think I can help with that aside from cover the entire room in velvet or protostar lol

Thanks a lot for your other post about the equalizer settings, I will try those tomorrow, when I have more time and can sit down unhurriedly. But maybe I will just have to invest more money in better, more natural sounding HPs, they need to be closed back (sadly), because I live in a loud environment and want privacy and isolation when I put them on (the Beyerdynamic 770s isolate quite well). I have seen that you own "Mrspeakers Alpha Prime", I have heard so much about those, but they are/were really expensive...

That would probably help to be honest, Beyerdynamics are by design, piercing and ringy/resonant.

And while a great coloration for music, can be uncomfortable as you've found with action effects, and render ing VSS.

There are other affordable closed headphones you could try that are smoother. The AKG K550 for instance.
https://www.akg.com/factory-refurbished/K550MKII.html
https://www.innerfidelity.com/images/AKGK550.pdf
Less transient attack, no ringing, much more linear frequency response

The Alpha Primes are few and far between these days, occasionally I'll see used pairs for sale for $250-$500. While more expensive, the MrSpeakers Aeon Closed is a very nice closed headphone for VSS. https://www.innerfidelity.com/images/MrSpeakersAeonsnACXB168wFilters.pdf

These wouldnt need any equalizing
https://www.ebay.com/itm/254162505730
https://www.innerfidelity.com/images/MrSpeakersMadDog2014.pdf fffffffflat

As for hardware, the conditioning and a good revealing dac/amp do the trick, my second system is much more affordable than my main system and still sounds fantastic. the NFB 11 connected via optical on an ultra isolator, $400-500 tops, no fancy cords or nothing ;]

 

[?oe?????o?>>]

Can you maybe recommend me a VST plug-in for the Equalizer APO and how to set it up ... . I tried a limiter called "LoudMax" but it has the typical "pumping" and "breathing" effect of compressors.
The best thing would be something like Dolby Volume ( https://www.dolby.com/us/en/technologies/dolby-volume.html ) but I cant find any PC software that supports it.

Thank you!

I'm right behind you, want to emulate that (receiver night mode / dolbys dynamic range compression / aftermaster pro), I happen to be playing with LoudMax also. Wondering if there's a more apt VST to bring down the loud instead of bringing up the threshold too much. Bumping this request instead of making a new thread, recently updated my EAPO because I saw it had VST support.

I happen to be using a 2.2 speaker setup, annoyed with how streaming video/movies are mastered after I've used replaygain for so long. I do have a calibrated mic and setup my speakers fine, it's just dialog is so low compared to music, then they run ads that are mastered like music.

Perhaps there's some literature on what all the Reaper VSTs do that I can get myself more familiar with and get back to you, I only plan to enable this sort of DSP when I'm not enjoying music.

 

[FLIR]

Sorry for my late reply - I was extremely busy over the last weeks. I hope you are doing fine...

The screen has some grey uniformity issues? That's strange I thought OLEDs had excellent uniformity.

Yes, dark grey uniformity of current OLED TVs is bad. 5-20% grey has vertical banding and DSE; 50% grey and upwards is perfect. The problem is that all consumer OLED TVs are whiteRGB screens; the only OLEDs without vertical banding and DSE in darker greys are true RGB screens, like the Sony BVM-X300 - for just 40.000$ . Here is a review of a guy who is very strict and picky when it comes to picture quality:

That would probably help to be honest, Beyerdynamics are by design, piercing and ringy/resonant.

And while a great coloration for music, can be uncomfortable as you've found with action effects, and render ing VSS.

As for hardware, the conditioning and a good revealing dac/amp do the trick, my second system is much more affordable than my main system and still sounds fantastic. the NFB 11 connected via optical on an ultra isolator, $400-500 tops, no fancy cords or nothing ;]

Thanks for the tips! I finally found a workable solution - without buying new equipment:

I tried WavesNX, you suggested to try the DEMO some time ago: https://www.waves.com/nx/mac-windows-app

Thanks for giving me the hint, I love it! The externalization is not as good as OOYH and the front speaker localisation is also not that good, but I love the sound quality! It sounds so "transparent" and "clear"! There is also no lag.

And I use the "Headphone Equalization" from "Oratory1990": https://www.dropbox.com/s/mejnlwpqm7uxtly/Beyerdynamic DT770 (old earpads).pdf?dl=0

The Beyerdynamics are now less piercing and "ringy"...

So, thank you, for all your tips and suggestions - you really helped me! The 10$ for WavesNX are my best investment in "virtual headphone surround" ever... I have seen that you have the Audeze Mobius; those headphones have NX, a DAC and an Amp build-in, am I right? How do you like them? Or is your other setup: "OOYH", extremely good DAC/Amp and headphones so good, that you do not use the Mobius at all?

 

[FLIR]

I'm right behind you, want to emulate that (receiver night mode / dolbys dynamic range compression / aftermaster pro), I happen to be playing with LoudMax also. Wondering if there's a more apt VST to bring down the loud instead of bringing up the threshold too much. Bumping this request instead of making a new thread, recently updated my EAPO because I saw it had VST support.

I happen to be using a 2.2 speaker setup, annoyed with how streaming video/movies are mastered after I've used replaygain for so long. I do have a calibrated mic and setup my speakers fine, it's just dialog is so low compared to music, then they run ads that are mastered like music.

Perhaps there's some literature on what all the Reaper VSTs do that I can get myself more familiar with and get back to you, I only plan to enable this sort of DSP when I'm not enjoying music.

I did not find a perfect solution, but LoudMax helped me a little bit. Sadly, I am the wrong guy to ask about how to set the plugin the right way; I am just an "end-user" with the same problem. If you happen to find a solution or a good VST plugin for EAPO, please post it here too! I will do the same....

 

[Zenvota]

I have seen that you have the Audeze Mobius; those headphones have NX, a DAC and an Amp build-in, am I right? How do you like them? Or is your other setup: "OOYH", extremely good DAC/Amp and headphones so good, that you do not use the Mobius at all?

The Mobius kick ass. They completely replaced my other headphones when I'm not using my desktop systems. They did not replace my desktop systems though, but they do sound better than if I use my main rig and ooyh with a pair of dynamics like the hd650s, planars/electrostats make a huge difference over dynamics when using vss/binaural renderers. I changed the pads on them and apply some extra eq, and I use them pretty much 100% with my phone connected via LDAC for music, with the 3d(waves nx and head tracking) on all the time.

 

[Zenvota]

Thanks for giving me the hint, I love it! The externalization is not as good as OOYH and the front speaker localisation is also not that good, but I love the sound quality! It sounds so "transparent" and "clear"! There is also no lag.

Thats great man! xD theres a reason I suggest Waves right behind OOYH, its excellent software. In the future you have the option to add the bluetooth tracker for $100, but I have no experience with that.

I did not find a perfect solution, but LoudMax helped me a little bit. Sadly, I am the wrong guy to ask about how to set the plugin the right way; I am just an "end-user" with the same problem. If you happen to find a solution or a good VST plugin for EAPO, please post it here too! I will do the same....

Someone suggested pedalboard2 to load vst into

 

[FLIR]

The Mobius kick ass. They completely replaced my other headphones when I'm not using my desktop systems. They did not replace my desktop systems though, but they do sound better than if I use my main rig and ooyh with a pair of dynamics like the hd650s, planars/electrostats make a huge difference over dynamics when using vss/binaural renderers. I changed the pads on them and apply some extra eq, and I use them pretty much 100% with my phone connected via LDAC for music, with the 3d(waves nx and head tracking) on all the time.

That sounds great - I have never tried planar/electrostat headphones, so I cant even imagine the difference. The Mobius seems to be a great package. The only downside is, that some people say, it has some kind of background noise. When I am using NX now with my Beyerdynamics and an external usb DAC/Amp there is no background noise at all, it is completely silent (DAC/AMP: 120 dB SNR and 0,0003 THD). And I need silence, because I mostly watch "atmospheric" movies and games, with a lot of silent scenes. Did you play "Bloodborne"? There are those dungeons where you can just hear your own footsteps and almost nothing else - only some "creatures" in the distance. Those silent areas are so atmospheric...

The Mobius has everything packed into the headphones; and with all the electronics (plus power supply) I understand that there might be some kind of background noise. I would love a solution with an external box; wired Audeze headhpones with a tracker on top - the rest: Waves Nx DSP, DAC, AMP etc. should be in the external "box", like a cheaper Smyth Realizer...

 

[Zenvota]

The only downside is, that some people say, it has some kind of background noise

I cant hear it. When I first turn them on, theres an active electronics noise, the typical shhh, the headphones say bluetooth, then it goes away completely. dead silent, if i push the drivers up against my ears maybe I can hear sometthing maybe i cant maybe its tinnitus, i dont know, they're dead silent. i was just listening to this album and at the end it really trails off with faint notes and micro details and it all renders crystal clear and I couldnt hear the exhaust fan in the room xD

Did you play "Bloodborne"? There are those dungeons where you can just hear your own footsteps and almost nothing else - only some "creatures" in the distance. Those silent areas are so atmospheric...

I havent but ive played games like it ;] Im more an immersive than competitive gamer so I know what you mean.

I would love a solution with an external box; wired Audeze headhpones with a tracker on top - the rest: Waves Nx DSP, DAC, AMP etc. should be in the external "box", like a cheaper Smyth Realizer

There was one, the dspeaker headspeaker, but they dont make it anymore. The Mobius is a fantastic option compared to the system building, you're just still limited to pc use for surround sound. But its all builtin and sounds excellent, and with the addition of the pad change to Brainwavz Angled Pleather, it pushes the image out further and sounds even better.

remember though with the realisers they also do custom headphone equalization, and thats a tough thing to implement for a wide array of headphones. in an affordable package, also including hdmi inputs, decoding, rendering, head tracking, usb or optical output, builtin dac and amping, costs add up and while sure you can use affordable parts and have it all together it just ends up sounding like the creative g6s or astro mixamps.

The binaural rendering and especially ones that use the measured room impulse responses, really really benefit from hifi equipment. Planars/electrostats increased responsiveness perfectly renders every sample for the binaural stream and the reflections of the room, amps/dacs with good linear power supplies, good regulation, and discrete dc coupled analog outputs, a lack of power and speed of the dac and amp and information is just lost forever. Also the increased bandwidth of usb to i2s to the dac chip is a big improvement over optical. Think for movies lossless audio is like 10-15 mb/s, doubled for the binaural stream and further increased in size by the room reflections and you're talking uhd video sized audio streams, you cant expect a pc motherboards headphone jack to output all that information. Its like expecting an 8088 to render modern video games.

And at that rendering an 11 channel movie track over 2 drivers... Look what it takes to do that with speakers...

 

[FLIR]

I cant hear it. When I first turn them on, theres an active electronics noise, the typical shhh, the headphones say bluetooth, then it goes away completely. dead silent, if i push the drivers up against my ears maybe I can hear sometthing maybe i cant maybe its tinnitus, i dont know, they're dead silent. i was just listening to this album and at the end it really trails off with faint notes and micro details and it all renders crystal clear and I couldnt hear the exhaust fan in the room

That's a great example, and some of the stranger dungeons in BB actually sound like this, lol... Maybe I should order a Mobius. There is so much in the whole "package" (planar hp, dsp, dac, amp, head tracker) that the price is more than "ok"... Do you think they will support the Mobius over a longer time?

I havent but ive played games like it ;] Im more an immersive than competitive gamer so I know what you mean.

I play only immersive games.. Soulsborne or those good old "immersive sims" like "System Shock 2". This is another reason why I need good, immersive headphones...

The Mobius is a fantastic option compared to the system building, you're just still limited to pc use for surround sound. But its all builtin and sounds excellent, and with the addition of the pad change to Brainwavz Angled Pleather, it pushes the image out further and sounds even better.

"Brainwavz Angled Pleather" - I will make a note to buy those, if I should ever own a Mobius, thanks...

remember though with the realisers they also do custom headphone equalization, and thats a tough thing to implement for a wide array of headphones.

They could add "Sonaworks Reference - Headphone" to WavesNx. Professionals seem to use "Nx – Virtual Mix Room" and Sonaworks headphone eq together already: https://www.sonarworks.com/reference/headphones

The binaural rendering and especially ones that use the measured room impulse responses, really really benefit from hifi equipment. Planars/electrostats increased responsiveness perfectly renders every sample for the binaural stream and the reflections of the room, amps/dacs with good linear power supplies, good regulation, and discrete dc coupled analog outputs, a lack of power and speed of the dac and amp and information is just lost forever. Also the increased bandwidth of usb to i2s to the dac chip is a big improvement over optical. Think for movies lossless audio is like 10-15 mb/s, doubled for the binaural stream and further increased in size by the room reflections and you're talking uhd video sized audio streams, you cant expect a pc motherboards headphone jack to output all that information. Its like expecting an 8088 to render modern video games.

Thats very interesting - we need a more affordable "home entertainment version" of the Realizer!

 

[Zenvota]

Do you think they will support the Mobius over a longer time?

It seems like it, theres a new firmware update coming out shortly.

"Brainwavz Angled Pleather" - I will make a note to buy those, if I should ever own a Mobius, thanks...

There was a little extra tinkering to get these to sound their best, as just popping off the stock pads and sliding these on didnt seal completely so I made a couple plastic and felt rings that did the trick. Should you choose to get them ill gladly walk you through using them as I found it to be a wonderful boost to sound quality and imaging/soundstaging.

They could add "Sonaworks Reference - Headphone" to WavesNx. Professionals seem to use "Nx – Virtual Mix Room" and Sonaworks headphone eq together already:

Thats true!

 

[FLIR]

There was a little extra tinkering to get these to sound their best, as just popping off the stock pads and sliding these on didnt seal completely so I made a couple plastic and felt rings that did the trick. Should you choose to get them ill gladly walk you through using them as I found it to be a wonderful boost to sound quality and imaging/soundstaging.

Thanks! And maybe I should send a "fan" mail to Waves, asking if they have plans to licence the "Sonaworks Reference" headphone database for Nx...

 

[plyr]

I did not find a perfect solution, but LoudMax helped me a little bit. Sadly, I am the wrong guy to ask about how to set the plugin the right way; I am just an "end-user" with the same problem. If you happen to find a solution or a good VST plugin for EAPO, please post it here too! I will do the same....

I use the MJUC(https://klanghelm.com/contents/main.html) as a compressor paired with a sennheiser GSX1200 for games at its the best solution I found yet. You can use their MJUC jr. for free.