Smyth Research Realiser A16
Oct 18, 2020 at 8:25 PM Post #10,606 of 15,986
@Got the Shakes: I now see that there are more than one level_cal.wav files. Not only in room 25, but also in 24 and 58.
So which one did you use?
The one in 24 is different, with longer (12 sec.?) and overlapping sweeps, and the sweep that is send to the sub is the bandlimited one, so this seems to be a better file.
The file from room 58 again has the band limited sweep for the right side surround channel (and 12 sec.(?) but non-overlapping sweeps).
The one from 24 is 8 channel, the one from 25 is 12 channel, and the one from 58 is 16 channel. (At least that I assume based on the bitrates 9216, 13824,18432 respectively).

I am now guessing the one from room 24, the 8 channel one, is the one to use for everything up to 7.1, but I am not sure because of the overlapping versus non-overlapping and the shorter versus longer...
(Or maybe the set of files is simply not complete, maybe there should have been a level_cal.wav file in every room.)

And I am guessing that somehow the channels get mixed up when playing a >8 channel file to a HDMI 8 channel PCM output (by my pc? by windows? ...?).
 
Oct 18, 2020 at 8:31 PM Post #10,607 of 15,986
@Got the Shakes: I now see that there are more than one level_cal.wav files. Not only in room 25, but also in 24 and 58.
So which one did you use?
The one in 24 is different, with longer (12 sec.?) and overlapping sweeps, and the sweep that is send to the sub is the bandlimited one, so this seems to be a better file.
The file from room 58 again has the band limited sweep for the right side surround channel (and 12 sec.(?) but non-overlapping sweeps).
The one from 24 is 8 channel, the one from 25 is 12 channel, and the one from 58 is 16 channel. (At least that I assume based on the bitrates 9216, 13824,18432 respectively).

I am now guessing the one from room 24, the 8 channel one, is the one to use for everything up to 7.1, but I am not sure because of the overlapping versus non-overlapping and the shorter versus longer...
(Or maybe the set of files is simply not complete, maybe there should have been a level_cal.wav file in every room.)

And I am guessing that somehow the channels get mixed up when playing a >8 channel file to a HDMI 8 channel PCM output (by my pc? by windows? ...?).

You know, I never went and even looked to see if other rooms had a level_cal file and didn't really study the file before I captured the PRIR last night. I setup my Windows output to 5.1 so I'm not sure if that makes a difference vs. sending the signal out as 7.1. I only have a 5.1 setup so that seemed to make sense to me. I'm not sure if I got a great level_cal pickup by the mics though as the one thing I noticed is that the resulting PRIR is a bit quieter than the one I made a year ago. For example if I would normally listen on volume level 45, with the new capture I feel like I have to increase it to about 50 to get the same loudness. Not sure if that is caused by weird pickup from the mics when doing the level calibration portion of the process.
 
Oct 19, 2020 at 12:30 AM Post #10,608 of 15,986
With the kind permission of @Thomasphoenix98, I have uploaded the async files to the PRIR google drive folder. I also taken the liberty of including a Microsoft Word document with instructions posted several hours ago by @Got the Shakes(post #10,597 in this thread), along with the Smyth Realiser firmware 1.80 and 1.90 pdfs referenced by @Got the Shakes in his instructions.

You can go directly to the folder here: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/18c1x7PxopCqj_Ag4anoG9q85OZIA-wJ9?usp=sharing
where they reside in subfolder #4(entitled "upload new files here").
 
Oct 19, 2020 at 12:57 AM Post #10,609 of 15,986
As requested here is a guide for what I did to make a PRIR using the async method. Thanks to @Thomasphoenix98 for the async files and to @audiohobbit for pointing out which folder a few necessary files were stored in. Here we go.

Items Needed:
  • Release notes for firmware 1.80 and 1.90 as the have the instructions for using async. Located 1.80 here and 1.90 here
  • Async .wav files
  • Laptop
  • Receive with HDMI input
Procedure Used:

I essentially just followed the step by step instructions in the 1.80 release notes which worked like a charm. The system I captured is a 5.1 setup so I used "PCM_sound_room_8" in the .zip with the async files. You'll need to make sure to grab three other files that are located in "PCM_sound_room_25" which are "noise.wav", "level_cal.wav", and "pll_cal.wav". The way I kept everything organized and executed the measurement were with these steps:

  1. Create a folder on your desktop named whatever you want and place all of the .wav files for the setup you want to capture as well as the three .wav files above
  2. Connect your laptop to a receiver via HDMI. Once connected right click on the sound options in the lower right side of the Windows taskbar and change the sound output to match the setup you're capturing either 5.1, 7.1, or Dolby Atmos for Home Theater
  3. Make sure you use some media player like VLC that can output multi-channel tracks
  4. Setup a PRIR sound room on the A16 to match the speaker layout you're connected to (this is the start of where the 1.80 release notes give you instructions)
  5. Go into the PRIR measurement app on the A16 set your appropriate settings an select "measure async PRIR"
  6. Play the "noise.wav" track on your laptop
  7. Play the "pll_cal.wav" file and wait for the A16 to do it's thing
  8. Play the "level_cal.wav" track and let the A16 do what it needs to
  9. Play the "look center" track from the room async files and follow the directions that are spoken in the track
  10. Continue playing one by one the rest of the look left and right files in the room you're capturing. It does not seem to matter what order you do them in, but you will have to lay each one individually. There will be a spoken voice on each track telling you what instructions to follow
  11. Upon completing all of the look track, the A16 should take you to a screen showing you that it's captured all of your speakers. There will be a white box around each captured speaker to confirm that it did successfully capture them
  12. Press enter on the remote to have the A16 save the PRIR
At this point you should have successfully created a PRIR using the async method. To use it you of course have to add the speakers to a PCM and Dolby room and then add them to a preset. The result for me was much better than the one I captured over a year ago using the sync method and unplugging and replugging all sorts of speaker cable. I suspect that the biggest reason why is that I was able to sit in the sweet spot and with minimal movement of my head.
I have only two speakers. Is it possible to stop this move the speakers, and capture a 5.1 setup doing that?

Another question. I'm having trouble getting the A16 to output program material from the analog outs. I'm using a room I created with Jazzfan's 9.1.6 D & D 8c Prir. I have a preset which has 9.1.6 for ATMOS, DTS-X and PCM. I've enabled the analog outs, gotten a y-connector and connected left and right RCA to the analog inputs of my miniDSP 2 x 4, and pressed the spealer button while feeding a Netflix movie from my PC.. The video pass through works but not the audio. I set Nexflix to output 2 channel stereo, and on the room graphic the L_R meters show it's receiving and processing? signal, but nothing comes through the analog outputs. The analog outs do send out the test tones for PRIRs with this hook up, so it's gotta be something (I hope) in how I'm setting it up.
 
Oct 19, 2020 at 1:02 AM Post #10,610 of 15,986
I wouldn’t want to be considered as ungrateful and paying too much attention to detail. However, when someone writes some instructions, he/she should pay attention to both spelling and particular or general aspects.

As part of the Post #10,597, Items Needed, I’d write

- laptop or a media player capable of rendering wav files
- AV receiver with HDMI inputs
 
Oct 19, 2020 at 5:48 AM Post #10,611 of 15,986
I have only two speakers. Is it possible to stop this move the speakers, and capture a 5.1 setup doing that?
No. Normally you would have to use a set of files for 2.0, that is not included in the rather arbitrary mixed set of files we have.
If you really, really want to there is a trick to go around that, but is it worth the trouble in this case?
For measuring with 2 speakers the method using the analog outputs works fine. (The theoretical advantage of skipping a DA and AD conversion is really completely negligible compared to other factors influencing the result if you are worried about that.)(The trick I had in mind is just use the first two speakers in every PRIR you measure. That is not a very neat solution of course. It may be necessary to make sure that every sweep - or extra signal - ends up being played back over at least one speaker.)


[Edit: or maybe it is possible to make 2 channel PRIRs with the 5.1 files, as @audiohobbit suggests in one of his next posts.]

Another question. I'm having trouble getting the A16 to output program material from the analog outs.
Did you switch AV on in the preset? (Maybe that is what you meant with "I've enabled the analog outs", but I was not sure.)
Did you "reload" the preset after changing this setting? (Go to the top line in the preset - with the cursor on the preset number - and press enter.)
Did you look at the volume setting? (It remembers a different setting for AV mode, I don't know how it is set initially.)

I must say I had the exact same problem when I was in the house of the A16 owner - who borrowed me his A16 for a while - to help him create a PRIR of his system. I waisted hours but when I noticed that the sweeps were coming out all right I didn't worry about it any longer and just went ahead to do PRIR measurements. Afterwards the AV mode suddenly worked. I still am not sure what happened. I think I did switch on AV before. It almost seemed some kind of bug, as if the A16 didn't want to go into that mode until "something" happened. Or maybe I just forgot to "reload" the preset... Anyway, the PRIR measurement succeeded. So I would say: just go ahead.
 
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Oct 19, 2020 at 5:53 AM Post #10,612 of 15,986
As requested here is a guide for what I did to make a PRIR using the async method. Thanks to @Thomasphoenix98 for the async files and to @audiohobbit for pointing out which folder a few necessary files were stored in. Here we go.

Items Needed:
  • Release notes for firmware 1.80 and 1.90 as the have the instructions for using async. Located 1.80 here and 1.90 here
  • Async .wav files
  • Laptop
  • Receive with HDMI input
Procedure Used:

I essentially just followed the step by step instructions in the 1.80 release notes which worked like a charm. The system I captured is a 5.1 setup so I used "PCM_sound_room_8" in the .zip with the async files. You'll need to make sure to grab three other files that are located in "PCM_sound_room_25" which are "noise.wav", "level_cal.wav", and "pll_cal.wav". The way I kept everything organized and executed the measurement were with these steps:

  1. Create a folder on your desktop named whatever you want and place all of the .wav files for the setup you want to capture as well as the three .wav files above
  2. Connect your laptop to a receiver via HDMI. Once connected right click on the sound options in the lower right side of the Windows taskbar and change the sound output to match the setup you're capturing either 5.1, 7.1, or Dolby Atmos for Home Theater
  3. Make sure you use some media player like VLC that can output multi-channel tracks
  4. Setup a PRIR sound room on the A16 to match the speaker layout you're connected to (this is the start of where the 1.80 release notes give you instructions)
  5. Go into the PRIR measurement app on the A16 set your appropriate settings an select "measure async PRIR"
  6. Play the "noise.wav" track on your laptop
  7. Play the "pll_cal.wav" file and wait for the A16 to do it's thing
  8. Play the "level_cal.wav" track and let the A16 do what it needs to
  9. Play the "look center" track from the room async files and follow the directions that are spoken in the track
  10. Continue playing one by one the rest of the look left and right files in the room you're capturing. It does not seem to matter what order you do them in, but you will have to lay each one individually. There will be a spoken voice on each track telling you what instructions to follow
  11. Upon completing all of the look track, the A16 should take you to a screen showing you that it's captured all of your speakers. There will be a white box around each captured speaker to confirm that it did successfully capture them
  12. Press enter on the remote to have the A16 save the PRIR
At this point you should have successfully created a PRIR using the async method. To use it you of course have to add the speakers to a PCM and Dolby room and then add them to a preset. The result for me was much better than the one I captured over a year ago using the sync method and unplugging and replugging all sorts of speaker cable. I suspect that the biggest reason why is that I was able to sit in the sweet spot and with minimal movement of my head.
I wouldn’t want to be considered as ungrateful and paying too much attention to detail. However, when someone writes some instructions, he/she should pay attention to both spelling and particular or general aspects.

As part of the Post #10,597, Items Needed, I’d write

- laptop or a media player capable of rendering wav files
- AV receiver with HDMI inputs
Although it may be obvious to most people, maybe also mention when you need to connect the in-ear microphones and put them in your ears. (Before step 5.)
 
Oct 19, 2020 at 6:41 AM Post #10,613 of 15,986
Today I’ve received two musical productions that I’ve ordered a few days ago. Both are sold as packages of CD and Blu-ray audio (BDA). Also, both offer the Dolby Atmos sound format on BDA.

The first one is John Lennon - GIMME SOME TRUTH. This anniversary edition consists of 2 CDs, one BDA and one impressive124-page book. The BDA has three sound formats: 2.0 HD Stereo, 5.1 Surround Sound and Dolby Atmos.

The complexity and importance of John Lennon's music cannot be questioned. It’s oldies but goldies. However, I think that for this edition the Dolby Atmos sound version makes no sense. This music was recorded on magnetic tapes some time ago and the recording technique at that time did not involve immersive sounds. Translating old analogue recordings into digital format deserves respect and approval, but that doesn’t mean the resulting digital product has better fidelity than the original recording. In other words, the Dolby Atmos format for these old recordings is more of a marketing issue.

On the other hand, the interpretation of Konstantin Reymaier - THE NEW ORGAN at St. Stephen’s Cathedral, Vienna was recorded in June-July 2020 and benefited from the state-of-the-art recording techniques. Moreover, listening to organ music in a cathedral it is very suitable for the object-oriented audio engineering by Dolby Atmos. I think this kind of music will sound impressive in a Dolby Atmos listening room of the Realiser A16.
Gimme.Some.Truth.jpgThe.New.Organ.1.jpgThe.New.Organ.2.jpgThe.New.Organ.3.jpgThe.New.Organ.4.jpg
 
Oct 19, 2020 at 7:10 AM Post #10,614 of 15,986
I mean quite honestly if you just follow the instructions in the 1.80 firmware document that Smyth Research provided, you’ll be fine. My guide was more to give people an idea of what files they’ll need to gather and what external devices they’ll need to make it work such as a laptop and AVR with HDMI.
 
Oct 19, 2020 at 7:23 AM Post #10,615 of 15,986
However, I think that for this edition the Dolby Atmos sound version makes no sense. This music was recorded on magnetic tapes some time ago and the recording technique at that time did not involve immersive sounds.
If they have multi-track recordings where each voice or instrument is recorded on a seperate track they can remix that to any number of channels. That is not comparable to simply running the stereo mix through an atmos upmixer, in case anyone thinks that.
 
Oct 19, 2020 at 9:02 AM Post #10,616 of 15,986
As requested here is a guide for what I did to make a PRIR using the async method. Thanks to @Thomasphoenix98 for the async files and to @audiohobbit for pointing out which folder a few necessary files were stored in. Here we go.

Items Needed:
  • Release notes for firmware 1.80 and 1.90 as the have the instructions for using async. Located 1.80 here and 1.90 here
  • Async .wav files
  • Laptop
  • Receive with HDMI input
Procedure Used:

I essentially just followed the step by step instructions in the 1.80 release notes which worked like a charm. The system I captured is a 5.1 setup so I used "PCM_sound_room_8" in the .zip with the async files. You'll need to make sure to grab three other files that are located in "PCM_sound_room_25" which are "noise.wav", "level_cal.wav", and "pll_cal.wav". The way I kept everything organized and executed the measurement were with these steps:

  1. Create a folder on your desktop named whatever you want and place all of the .wav files for the setup you want to capture as well as the three .wav files above
  2. Connect your laptop to a receiver via HDMI. Once connected right click on the sound options in the lower right side of the Windows taskbar and change the sound output to match the setup you're capturing either 5.1, 7.1, or Dolby Atmos for Home Theater
  3. Make sure you use some media player like VLC that can output multi-channel tracks
  4. Setup a PRIR sound room on the A16 to match the speaker layout you're connected to (this is the start of where the 1.80 release notes give you instructions)
  5. Go into the PRIR measurement app on the A16 set your appropriate settings an select "measure async PRIR"
  6. Play the "noise.wav" track on your laptop
  7. Play the "pll_cal.wav" file and wait for the A16 to do it's thing
  8. Play the "level_cal.wav" track and let the A16 do what it needs to
  9. Play the "look center" track from the room async files and follow the directions that are spoken in the track
  10. Continue playing one by one the rest of the look left and right files in the room you're capturing. It does not seem to matter what order you do them in, but you will have to lay each one individually. There will be a spoken voice on each track telling you what instructions to follow
  11. Upon completing all of the look track, the A16 should take you to a screen showing you that it's captured all of your speakers. There will be a white box around each captured speaker to confirm that it did successfully capture them
  12. Press enter on the remote to have the A16 save the PRIR
At this point you should have successfully created a PRIR using the async method. To use it you of course have to add the speakers to a PCM and Dolby room and then add them to a preset. The result for me was much better than the one I captured over a year ago using the sync method and unplugging and replugging all sorts of speaker cable. I suspect that the biggest reason why is that I was able to sit in the sweet spot and with minimal movement of my head.
The preamble is completely missing here! This tells the A16 what speakers and what look angles are to be measured!
Concerning level_cal, there's something messed up here. Normally every room should have its own level_cal file, most of them are just missing here. So we have to take one of the existing files, it should work I think.
The man noise and the pll files are always the same. I recommend to copy them to all folders and I strongly recommend to rename all files in the folders according to folder no. and track order. Otherwise if you copy files elsewhere and they all are just named look_center you don't know any more which is which.
I suggested this already to them to give those files specific names, not "look_centre" in every folder, but e.g. 25a_04_look_centre.wav etc.

The order of the look angles doesn't matter with the newer Firmwares but the peoposed order (as with the Sync mode) is always alternating between left/right, the reason is when using the HT guided modes you always move your head through the center so the HT can "recalibrate" itself.
See also the example menu layout in FW update 1.80 instructions p. 5:

So as an example ( I don't have the correct file names here) for a room 25 file naming and order of the procedure:

25_01_noise.wav: With mics in your ears you should set the level of your sound system according to the picture "Ideal level" on p.8 of FW1.80 instructions.
25_02_level_calibrate.wav: With mics in the ears and looking forward the Realiser automatically sets its mic gain. The ideal target gain is 4 (dB)! So if It's above or below this you should readjust the level of your sound system
25_03_phase_lock.wav: Mics in ears lokking forward, totally quiet, keep your head as still as possible. The phase between player and Realiser is adjusted for best results. Afterwards a phase drift in samples per second (s/sec) is reported. This should be as low as possible, ideally 0. In the example it's 0.2
52_04_preamble.wav: This is the setup track. It tells the Realiser what speakers are to be measured and (I think) what look angles are to be expected.
However it is said in FW1.80 that you should also setup a PRIR sound room with the speakers in the order as described in the Async sound rooms document and of course you should give the room a name and select it for the measurement so that the files be named accordingly.

With the new function "Override preamble IDs" you can enter different speaker IDs in the PRIR sound room setup as explained in FW1.90 instruction p.9/10
What I don't know is if you still need the preamble, but as far as I remember the preamble also tells the A16 which look angles should be measured. The on screen numbers of Azi looks and Elev looks only appear after playing the preamble.

And what I also don't know if you can measure less speakers than originally included in the sweeps with "Override preamble IDs". Let's say you only want to measure stereo L and R and we only have a 5.1 sweeps, so you would just enter the speakers 1 L, 2 R in the PRIR sound room and leave everything else blank, then active the Override preamble ID switch and use the 5.1 sweeps to measure just the 2 speakers. This would be good if that worked.
Then you could measure even a 9.1.6 system with 7.1 or 5.1 pcm wavs. Let's say we have a 7.1.4 system and only a 7.1 pcm sweep. We would measure the 7.1 ear level speakers as they are. Then we would assign the top speakers to the channels 1,2,3 and 5. 4has to be omitted because that would normally be the SW channel and this is band limited.
So we would assign 1 Ltf, 2 Rtf, 3 Ltr, 5 Rtr.
We have to plug in our real top speakers then to the L, R, C and Lss posts on our AVR and reassign the EQ settings (and crossovers; and distances but this doesn't matter) in the AVR from those top channels to those LCR and Lss channels.

IF this would work as I hope.

However then you play the look angle tracks:

25_05_look_center.wav
25_06_look_left_15.wav
25_07_look_right_15.wav
25_08_look_left_30.wav
...


And not forget to use the PRIR viewer, at least after the first sweep to see if everything seems all right and at the end to get an overview. See the video on YT for this.
 
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Oct 19, 2020 at 9:22 AM Post #10,617 of 15,986
I've uploaded my 9.1.6 PRIR(s) to the Google Drive for your enjoyment...

Speakers Measured:
  • (2) Paradigm Studio 100 V.3 (Base Layer)
  • Paradigm Seismic 12
  • (2) Paradigm SA-10r (In-Ceiling) (Atmos)

Just add each of the nine PRIRs to your listening room(s)

When combined… these PRIRs do a very good job of capturing my listening area. The sound is intimate with a rich pleasing tone. YMMV

The LFE may need to be adjusted based on your headphones and taste.

Please let me know what you think

Litlgi74
 
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Oct 19, 2020 at 10:00 AM Post #10,619 of 15,986
The preamble is completely missing here! This tells the A16 what speakers and what look angles are to be measured!
Concerning level_cal, there's something messed up here. Normally every room should have its own level_cal file, most of them are just missing here. So we have to take one of the existing files, it should work I think.
The man noise and the pll files are always the same. I recommend to copy them to all folders and I strongly recommend to rename all files in the folders according to folder no. and track order. Otherwise if you copy files elsewhere and they all are just named look_center you don't know any more which is which.
I suggested this already to them to give those files specific names, not "look_centre" in every folder, but e.g. 25a_04_look_centre.wav etc.

The order of the look angles doesn't matter with the newer Firmwares but the peoposed order (as with the Sync mode) is always alternating between left/right, the reason is when using the HT guided modes you always move your head through the center so the HT can "recalibrate" itself.
See also the example menu layout in FW update 1.80 instructions p. 5:

So as an example ( I don't have the correct file names here) for a room 25 file naming and order of the procedure:

25_01_noise.wav: With mics in your ears you should set the level of your sound system according to the picture "Ideal level" on p.8 of FW1.80 instructions.
25_02_level_calibrate.wav: With mics in the ears and looking forward the Realiser automatically sets its mic gain. The ideal target gain is 4 (dB)! So if It's above or below this you should readjust the level of your sound system
25_03_phase_lock.wav: Mics in ears lokking forward, totally quiet, keep your head as still as possible. The phase between player and Realiser is adjusted for best results. Afterwards a phase drift in samples per second (s/sec) is reported. This should be as low as possible, ideally 0. In the example it's 0.2
52_04_preamble.wav: This is the setup track. It tells the Realiser what speakers are to be measured and (I think) what look angles are to be expected.
However it is said in FW1.80 that you should also setup a PRIR sound room with the speakers in the order as described in the Async sound rooms document and of course you should give the room a name and select it for the measurement so that the files be named accordingly.

With the new function "Override preamble IDs" you can enter different speaker IDs in the PRIR sound room setup as explained in FW1.90 instruction p.9/10
What I don't know is if you still need the preamble, but as far as I remember the preamble also tells the A16 which look angles should be measured. The on screen numbers of Azi looks and Elev looks only appear after playing the preamble.

And what I also don't know if you can measure less speakers than originally included in the sweeps with "Override preamble IDs". Let's say you only want to measure stereo L and R and we only have a 5.1 sweeps, so you would just enter the speakers 1 L, 2 R in the PRIR sound room and leave everything else blank, then active the Override preamble ID switch and use the 5.1 sweeps to measure just the 2 speakers. This would be good if that worked.
Then you could measure even a 9.1.6 system with 7.1 or 5.1 pcm wavs. Let's say we have a 7.1.4 system and only a 7.1 pcm sweep. We would measure the 7.1 ear level speakers as they are. Then we would assign the top speakers to the channels 1,2,3 and 5. 4has to be omitted because that would normally be the SW channel and this is band limited.
So we would assign 1 Ltf, 2 Rtf, 3 Ltr, 5 Rtr.
We have to plug in our real top speakers then to the L, R, C and Lss posts on our AVR and reassign the EQ settings (and crossovers; and distances but this doesn't matter) in the AVR from those top channels to those LCR and Lss channels.

IF this would work as I hope.

However then you play the look angle tracks:

25_05_look_center.wav
25_06_look_left_15.wav
25_07_look_right_15.wav
25_08_look_left_30.wav
...


And not forget to use the PRIR viewer, at least after the first sweep to see if everything seems all right and at the end to get an overview. See the video on YT for this.

Yeah whoops in the phase lock thing. This is what happens when I write things off the top of my head and didn’t make notes to work from. What you’ve written up is way better than what I attempted to put together.
 
Oct 19, 2020 at 11:44 AM Post #10,620 of 15,986
Has anyone compared the A16's sound quality to the A8 for two-channel music? Theoretically it should sound better because it has a better DAC, but you never know.
 
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