Smyth Research Realiser A16
Jul 14, 2020 at 6:46 PM Post #9,496 of 12,997

Got the Shakes

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And I thought it was only me!

I had operating this thing down to a science it felt like before I shipped it out for the upgrade, and now I’m not even kidding when I say I feel like I completely forgot how to do just about everything.
 
Jul 14, 2020 at 7:18 PM Post #9,497 of 12,997

phoenixdogfan

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I had operating this thing down to a science it felt like before I shipped it out for the upgrade, and now I’m not even kidding when I say I feel like I completely forgot how to do just about everything.
If and when I get mine back I'm gonna have to rewatch the vids, re-read the manual, and re-read key posts like how to make a multi speaker PRIR with two speaker. And when are they going to update the manual! Grrr!

And the thing that's really pissing me off, is the thing still does stuff that necessitates you shut it off and reload earlier versions of firmware, etc. There should not be anything an end user does with a remote control that causes this unit to crash. Just bull that a year after release we're still talking about crashes, and new pro versions, and long wait turnaround times, instead of delivery of the promised capabilities.
 
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Jul 14, 2020 at 8:03 PM Post #9,498 of 12,997

Got the Shakes

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Things that don't seem to work so far on my upgraded A16:

  • Audio passthrough seem broken. Worked totally fine before the upgrade
  • The Centro Control/IP Control seem completely broken. I can get my iPad to connect to my A16, but none of the controls in the app seem to actually do anything. My A16 is indicating that it's receiving an IP command when I push one of the virtual buttons in the app, but nothing beyond that happens
Edit: The audio passthrough issue was user error. Disregard that.

Edit 2: Figured IP control out too. It works if you are at the speaker map screen and nowhere else in the UI.
 
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Jul 14, 2020 at 10:31 PM Post #9,499 of 12,997

Got the Shakes

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@audiohobbit I think I found what seems to be a pretty serious issue that you may want to pass along to Stephen. I cannot run the manLOUD HPEQ on my updated unit. I was able to run the autoEQ fine on my self created PRIR (and can run autoEQ selecting any built in PRIR as well). I can't run manLOUD or manSPK at all. I select in the HPEQ app and then go to run the program and it just perpetually says it's loading data and never actually gets to the point of letting me do it. This is on firmware 1.96 and with the upgraded hardware. I have to power down the A16 with the remote and power it back on to be able to use it again.

Edit: I don't know why, but it seems to be working again.
 
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Jul 15, 2020 at 1:28 AM Post #9,500 of 12,997

audiohobbit

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Ok, let me know if it starts not working again.
Btw. Auto EQ imo should not need a PRIR to be loaded. It should linearize the HP response independent of any PRIR and then an auto EQ should be usable with any PRIR.
That's at least what I think so far. Never tried auto EQ with loading a PRIR.
What autoEQ can't equalize is your ear canal resonance because it is blocked by the microphones. Therefore to be more precise one should do a manLOUD HPEQ on top of the autoEQ (and Stephen recommends to do it with a specific PRIR loaded and then it is valid only for this PRIR) but so far I haven't tried this, because it's difficult, I presume more so than a manLOUD for a non personal PRIR because that will deviate much more from your personal hearing curve.
But the not EQed ear canal resonance is, according to Stephen, the reason why some personal made PRIRs still sound too bright.


I'm puzzled with bass management. APM89 Bass / Treble control doesn't seem to do anything anymore and somehow I'm lost with old bass management options, I'm not sure how they work anymore..
Bass management and the APM89 bass and treble are 2 different things. Are you aware of that? Maybe I'm just confused because you mention them more or less in one sentence.
IMO with the BBC and Surrey rooms you don't need bass management, as I think every speaker there has been bass managed already in the room and was recorded full range in the PRIR. That at least I presumed based on my 2.0 stereo music listening with the Surrey room.
Also notable is that 24ch mode is only usable on HDMI inputs, you cannot use it with LINE/USB/SPDIF which is ok, but good to know. Dolby Atmos sounds amazing with 24ch precision with those Dolby atmos trailers.
At least SPDIF should be possible to upmix to at least 16ch by the upmixer I think. Does this work in 16ch mode? And in 24ch mode it doesn't upmix? Try not only switch the upmixer on on the PCM audio management page of the preset but also the normal Dolby Surround upmixer on the preset. I think Imencounterd last time that PCM upmixing only worked when both settings are on.
I wish the user manual will be updated with current channel names and locations and lists which presets use them. Currently, I have found the same speakers called with 3 different names which is very confusing.
So far I only saw the side center speakers mixed up. They are named Lsc and Rsc in the Realiser (Left side centre,...) and they named them Lcs and Rcs in some documents.
What other channels you found with different names?
Mandatory are the names inside the Realiser, in the Ref column for example when you load a specific listening mode to a listening room. And then the PRIR you choose must have speakers with the same labels as Vspkr.
 
Jul 15, 2020 at 7:43 AM Post #9,501 of 12,997

Grue

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Bass management and the APM89 bass and treble are 2 different things. Are you aware of that? Maybe I'm just confused because you mention them more or less in one sentence.
IMO with the BBC and Surrey rooms you don't need bass management, as I think every speaker there has been bass managed already in the room and was recorded full range in the PRIR. That at least I presumed based on my 2.0 stereo music listening with the Surrey room.
I have read the user manual and understand how bass management works there, but it doesn't seem to make sense with my Realiser using 24ch rooms.

I'm using my own rooms naturally here, those preset rooms are just not up to the bar with my own measurements. Bass is just a problem as I used my old satellite speakers which are rated 120-20Khz and naturally you don't have bass at all with those on measurements. I know, this is stupid, but currently, I'm with these.

At least SPDIF should be possible to upmix to at least 16ch by the upmixer I think. Does this work in 16ch mode? And in 24ch mode it doesn't upmix? Try not only switch the upmixer on on the PCM audio management page of the preset but also the normal Dolby Surround upmixer on the preset. I think Imencounterd last time that PCM upmixing only worked when both settings are on.

You can only choose HDMI1-4 as inputs when you activate 24ch, there's no way to choose others at least I don't know-how.

So far I only saw the side center speakers mixed up. They are named Lsc and Rsc in the Realiser (Left side centre,...) and they named them Lcs and Rcs in some documents.
What other channels you found with different names?
Mandatory are the names inside the Realiser, in the Ref column for example when you load a specific listening mode to a listening room. And then the PRIR you choose must have speakers with the same labels as Vspkr.

If you look March update and 15.1.8 description: 5.1.8ch (C, Lcs, Rcs, L, R, Lw, Rw, Ls1, Rs1, Lss, Rss, Lrs1, Rrs1, Lb, Rb, Lfh, Rfh, Ltf, Rtf, Ltr, Rtr, Lrh, Rrh, SUB)

for example Lhr = Lrh

Also when looking user manual and this table on manual page 98, there's also mixups with those 3 letter acronyms. Also if you compare manual page 98 to internal names of the Realiser you'll notice differences. There's internal channels compared to page 98:

1. L
2. R
3. C
4. SW
5. Ls
6. Rs
7. Lb
8. Rb
9. Lss
10. Rss
11. Cr
12. SW2
13. Lw
14. Rw
15. Lbs
16. Rbs
17. Lc
18. Rc
19. Lg
20. Rg
21. Cg
22. Ch
23. Chr
24. T
25. Lh
26. Rh
27. Lhs
28. Rhs
29. Lhr
30. Rhr
31. Ltf
32. Rtf
33. Ltm
34. Rtm (Ltm)
35. Ltr
36. Rtr (Ltr)
37. Lsc
38. Rsc
39. Ls1
40. Rs1
41. Lrs1
42. Rrs1
43. Lrs2 (marked 44 on map)
44. Rrs2
45. Lhw
46. Rhw
47. Lhs1
48. Rhs1
(49. Lgb)
(50. Rbg)

There are 50 positions, but only 48 available on Realiser. Also there are some errors on that map, which I tried to mark as ()

Thanks for asking btw, I finally got arsed to thru these actual names in my Realiser, now I can make corrections to this manual page until there's official fixed one.

Its way too easy to mix up these channel names, but when I'm doing measurements I want to be absolutely sure I measure correct channels so I don't have to redo them.

Now, I remember that there's is also a channel map in the command server manual pdf on page 19. There are 52 speaker positions and its different...

Now I wonder which one I should look... *SIGH*
 
Jul 15, 2020 at 9:20 AM Post #9,502 of 12,997

Got the Shakes

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Ok, let me know if it starts not working again.
Btw. Auto EQ imo should not need a PRIR to be loaded. It should linearize the HP response independent of any PRIR and then an auto EQ should be usable with any PRIR.
That's at least what I think so far. Never tried auto EQ with loading a PRIR.
What autoEQ can't equalize is your ear canal resonance because it is blocked by the microphones. Therefore to be more precise one should do a manLOUD HPEQ on top of the autoEQ (and Stephen recommends to do it with a specific PRIR loaded and then it is valid only for this PRIR) but so far I haven't tried this, because it's difficult, I presume more so than a manLOUD for a non personal PRIR because that will deviate much more from your personal hearing curve.
But the not EQed ear canal resonance is, according to Stephen, the reason why some personal made PRIRs still sound too bright.

So if I’m understanding correctly since it’s been almost a year since I dealt with HPEQs, the ideal solution if using autoEQ is to then load that autoEQ and the PRIR in the HPEQ app and run the manLOUD procedure on it to account for the measurements being a bit off due to the mics in my ears with running the autoEQ?

I also think I figured what was going wrong with my initial attempts with the manLOUD procedure last night. What I want to do is to generate multiple HPEQ files and label them so I know which virtual speakers I’ve run the manLOUD on. I thought that when I would load the HPEQ app that I could run manLOUD and it would generate a brand New HPEQ file that would have the flatEQ and manLOUD in it. For some reason I think it was caught in a loop trying to create a new HPEQ file. When I ran the procedure loaded with an already existing HPEQ file, it worked perfectly fine. So I think I’m the future if I create a new file running either the flatEQ or autoEQ and then load that to attach the manLOUD EQ to that I should be fine.

Last question I have is for preloaded speakers like the Surrey or BBC ones I know running manLOUD on those helps make them sound more like a virtual surround room, but I’ve been doing it off of a flatEQ. Is there any advantage to autoEQ those speakers first and then manLOUD or running manLOUD on the flatEQ the preferred way?
 
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Jul 15, 2020 at 10:20 AM Post #9,503 of 12,997

MichaelJames99

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Im still waiting for my unit. Any idea where we are at in the wait list?
 
Jul 15, 2020 at 12:36 PM Post #9,506 of 12,997

Got the Shakes

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Im still waiting for my unit. Any idea where we are at in the wait list?

I seem to remember that somewhere in this thread maybe a few weeks back, someone who was a preorder customer got a response from James that sort of laid out how many Kickstarter units they had left to deliver before the started filling preorders.
 
Jul 15, 2020 at 1:55 PM Post #9,507 of 12,997

audiohobbit

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I have read the user manual and understand how bass management works there, but it doesn't seem to make sense with my Realiser using 24ch rooms.
What exactly is the problem?
Bass management is a very complicated topic, I always try to avoid it in the Realiser. Better bass manage the speakers with a sub in the real room and record them as full range.
You can only choose HDMI1-4 as inputs when you activate 24ch, there's no way to choose others at least I don't know-how.
Ok, this could be, then it would make sense.
If you look March update and 15.1.8 description: 5.1.8ch (C, Lcs, Rcs, L, R, Lw, Rw, Ls1, Rs1, Lss, Rss, Lrs1, Rrs1, Lb, Rb, Lfh, Rfh, Ltf, Rtf, Ltr, Rtr, Lrh, Rrh, SUB)
Thanks for asking btw, I finally got arsed to thru these actual names in my Realiser, now I can make corrections to this manual page until there's official fixed one.
If you're looking at the thread linked in my signature I already went through all these speaker names etc. in the manual when it came out last year and send all errors I encountered to Smyth because there were a lot.
With the 24ch there will even be more... an I think some channels could be relabelled also, the rear center for example.

To check the naming and the listening modes in the manual I went through ALL listening modes in the Realiser itself. These are the mandatory labels. And there I found no error so far last year. Only in the manual lots of errors...
So if I’m understanding correctly since it’s been almost a year since I dealt with HPEQs, the ideal solution if using autoEQ is to then load that autoEQ and the PRIR in the HPEQ app and run the manLOUD procedure on it to account for the measurements being a bit off due to the mics in my ears with running the autoEQ?
Yes, that's what Stephen recommends. I haven't tried it myself so far. As target curve you should use equal loudness 80 I think.
that I could run manLOUD and it would generate a brand New HPEQ file that would have the flatEQ and manLOUD in it
Yeah I ran into the same problem at first. Then I figured out that you always need a new auto or flat HPEQ for every manLOUD EQ because as you noticed manLOUD curve is just attached.
So if you want to try out the 3 different speaker settings from a PRIR you have to generate 3 distinct flat or autoEQ HPEQs at first.

Last question I have is for preloaded speakers like the Surrey or BBC ones I know running manLOUD on those helps make them sound more like a virtual surround room, but I’ve been doing it off of a flatEQ. Is there any advantage to autoEQ those speakers first and then manLOUD or running manLOUD on the flatEQ the preferred way?
YOu don't auto EQ the speakers, just the headphone. In the video they recommend with normal HPs using an auto EQ as a starting point. I'm not sure if this makes a difference. I tend to use a flat EQ as starting HPEQ, because as you noticed you always need a new HPEQ for every manLOUD curve, and a flat HPEQ is generate via one click whereas each auto HPEQ takes much longer and you have to plug in the mics etc, so much more time-consuming.
 
Jul 15, 2020 at 2:04 PM Post #9,508 of 12,997

Got the Shakes

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What exactly is the problem?
Bass management is a very complicated topic, I always try to avoid it in the Realiser. Better bass manage the speakers with a sub in the real room and record them as full range.

Ok, this could be, then it would make sense.


If you're looking at the thread linked in my signature I already went through all these speaker names etc. in the manual when it came out last year and send all errors I encountered to Smyth because there were a lot.
With the 24ch there will even be more... an I think some channels could be relabelled also, the rear center for example.

To check the naming and the listening modes in the manual I went through ALL listening modes in the Realiser itself. These are the mandatory labels. And there I found no error so far last year. Only in the manual lots of errors...

Yes, that's what Stephen recommends. I haven't tried it myself so far. As target curve you should use equal loudness 80 I think.

Yeah I ran into the same problem at first. Then I figured out that you always need a new auto or flat HPEQ for every manLOUD EQ because as you noticed manLOUD curve is just attached.
So if you want to try out the 3 different speaker settings from a PRIR you have to generate 3 distinct flat or autoEQ HPEQs at first.


YOu don't auto EQ the speakers, just the headphone. In the video they recommend with normal HPs using an auto EQ as a starting point. I'm not sure if this makes a difference. I tend to use a flat EQ as starting HPEQ, because as you noticed you always need a new HPEQ for every manLOUD curve, and a flat HPEQ is generate via one click whereas each auto HPEQ takes much longer and you have to plug in the mics etc, so much more time-consuming.

Thank you! I guess I worded it wrong, but what I was essentially asking was if I should generate an autoEQ for for each manLOUD I wanted to run for a set of speakers. Funny how I just did all of this stuff when I first got my A16 and haven’t really had to do it since so I forgot a lot of this stuff. Getting my A16 upgraded kind of was the kick in the butt to start keeping thing organized on the HPEQ end of things because before I had a ton of then generated but they weren’t labeled right and it was a headache. Thanks again!
 
Jul 15, 2020 at 3:51 PM Post #9,509 of 12,997

phoenixdogfan

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Just received my notice from James. My new A16 ships on Friday! Yippeee!
 

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