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Smyth Research Realiser A16

Discussion in 'High-end Audio Forum' started by jgazal, May 7, 2016.
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  1. SobiC
    Hey guys,
    you don't have to wait for the asynchronous mode to be implemented (at least for up to 8 speakers)! Just record the measurement signal, save it as multichannel wav or flac and play it back on your streaming device or blu-ray player.
    I've done this when I received my Realiser last month. If you have a legacy 5.1 system, you can use my recording:
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/k42hj391gwq2w8c/SMYTH Realiser - 5.1 Longsweep 30deg.flac?dl=0
    Just go to PRIR measurements, press SPK, play back the file and press the SPK-button when the playback hits the 3 second mark.

    You must use the 12 sec non-overlapping routine with one look-angle at 30 deg, HT assist must be turned off. The LFE signal is -10dB, so you have to switch hp LFE +10dB on afterwards (Listening rooms / manage bass)
  2. Erik Garci
    Atlona makes devices that produce stereo audio for one sink while passing through the multichannel stream to another sink. This might be a work-around.

  3. audiohobbit
    Seems like this costs about 500 euros/dollars and has only one input, so I don't think that's a real solution people will take into consideration.

    I think I noticed a slight change they made with the new FW that's not documented. When in speaker map display and you turn the volume up or down, the volume level is shown momentarily in big letters on the display. The time that this is displayed seems to be shorter now than before, it returns faster to the speaker map display which I think is good, because operation seems to be blocked when the volume level is shown.

    I ran into new lipsync "issues" but actually I had to REDUCE the audio delay of 90 ms in the Panasonic player.
    I also made a firmware update for the Panasonic player yesterday so not sure what's causing it, but I don't think that it's the player.
    But seems like I need different settings for netflix and movies from Bluray.
    I watched a Netflix movie, which is Dolby Digital (Plus I think) and had to reduce audio delay to 30 or 40 ms (40 seems a bit too long, 30 a bit too short though). I did in the player. I tested Bluray with DTS converted to PCM and I had to increase audio delay again. 50 to 60 ms, but I'm not yet there. With the player it's difficult because you always have to stop the movie and go to the menu to change lipsync.
    So I will try the A16 delay settings tonight. The fact that the delay is stored in the presets comes in handy, so I could make different presets for Netflix, Bluray etc.

    If this works I think I'll drop lipsync from my list.
    I wrote about different lipsync settings for all inputs but in the presets it's better and you can also assign the input to the preset now.
    Although it's just for the digital inputs. I don't think we'll get lipsync for the analogue inputs since I think this is handled by different DSPs (although the A8 has a global delay setting I think, also for analogue inputs).

    And I think we won't get "negative delay", which is not possible since the A16 has no video processing capability.

    Do you agree that I could drop lipsync from the wish list?

    And I also may drop direct preset selection. I think it's quite good now (although only for presets 1 to 9) and the selection menu I proposed, I don't think we'll get this and better wait for browser GUI.
  4. Eich1eeF
    I believe the HDFury Vertex or Integral may be a viable choice, available second hand for less than 200 EUR. Aside from 4k<>2k scaling they can split the signal to both output ports, up- or downscale the video, alter the EDID and have an OSD that clearly identifies the input and output signals. I haven't tested it, but if only one of the sink devices is on, the sources should see the EDID (and thus the audio capabilities) of the active device.
  5. phoenixdogfan
    I played this back, it seems like it's only taking 3 measurement-center, left and right). Am I missing something. How are you deriving left and right surround and LFE from this?
  6. Erik Garci
    The Atlona devices go a step further than that. Both sinks can be active at the same time. For example, it passes the multichannel stream to a receiver (which has the audio EDID that the source detects), and it downmixes to 2-channel for a TV.
  7. sander99
    I didn't try to play the file yet, but can tell you what should be on it:
    3 times a sequence of 5 sweeps (one over each speaker). During the first 5 sweeps you have to look straight forward (so that each speaker is measured while looking forward), during the next 5 sweeps you have to look 30 ° left, during the last 5 sweeps you have to look 30° right.
    Are there indeed 3 x 5 sweeps?
    [Edit: excuse me, 3 x 6 instead of 3 x 5, I forgot the LFE]
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2019
  8. SobiC
    This is strange, it's a standard 6 channel flac. Measurement sequence should be L R C Sub SL SR repeating twice for -30deg and 30deg measurements.
    Maybe WAV works better?
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/1f1kxzk2zsl26i1/SMYTH Realiser - 5.1 Longsweep 30deg.wav?dl=0
  9. Erik Garci
    I wonder if you could pre-capture the in-ear microphone signals as well. That is, record the microphone signals to a file while playing the sweeps from a file, then later play the microphone signals from the file to the Realiser (A8 or A16). I already figured out how to feed line-level signals to the microphone input on my A8, so I know that part works at least. You could even use a phone app to record from binaural microphones.
  10. SobiC
    I think this will work, you just have to make sure settings and timing are correct. It shouldn't be much of a hassle once the async mode works though.
  11. Videodr0me
    I can clear this up. The A16 delays audio by about 70-100ms more in dolby decoding mode (@23.976) compared to pcm input (measured with a syncheck3 device, with the same stream). So whenever you playback a non-dolby track, the player will fall back to pcm and the audio delay of the realiser will change. This is of course unacceptable for two reasons: (1) you need to fiddle with audio delays when switching streams and (2) many devices (players) only allow positive audio delays but not video delays (equivalent to negative audio offsets). Also an additional 100ms is quite large and even on the Oppo203 (which allows negative audio offsets) its about the maximum it can compensate for.

    (1) the decoding pipeline should be optimized as much as possible to reduce decoding lag
    (2) in addition an option should be present that allows for "constant audio delay" between all formates. This could be in form of a general system option, but even better as a PCM/DOLBY/DTS room option that allows for different audio delays for each format. This should be prepopulated automatically with values that ensure constant audio delay across formats.

    The problem was probably masked by modern displays introducing a lot of video lag on their own, which might just push audio delay of the realiser below the video delay of the display. But the trend is clearly no friend here, as many modern displays low lag or gaming modes might make this problem even worse. For example I measured my LG C9 at 13ms delay@60hz and a Sony500ES projector at 32ms@60hz in these modes. But even currently, if your display has less video lag than the realisers A16 audio lag and your player does not allow for negative audio offsets you are out of luck, you will have lip-sync issues in dolby decoding modes (another complication is if the player uses the displays EDIDs data on its video delay and compensates for that - some players do, some don't) .
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2019
    SobiC likes this.
  12. phoenixdogfan
    Ok, now I understand. I was under the impression you had to move around and turn yourself so you were facing backward on the final two measurements, and that there would be six separate instructions to reposition yourself to capture each speaker.

    Obviously, this recording would only work if you had a 5.1 setup in the room you were measuring. I could not be used for a single channel measurement method.
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2019
  13. CaptainFunk
    Exactly, I have set my TV to Game Mode and the lag with Dolby Digital bitstreams is really noticeable. When I set the TV to some other mode, which enables some of these horrible picture post-processing effects, the lag is less noticeable because the picture is delayed more than in Game Mode.

    Decoding audio uses processing power, it totally makes sense that it introduces some latency.
  14. sander99
    I remember reading somewhere that a negative audio delay setting in the A16 could be possible without delaying the video inside the A16 itself: instead the A16 should signal to the source (or to the display?) to delay the video. I don't know how common or uncommon support is for this.
  15. bcwang
    Firmware 1.75 introduces a lot of new settings but many of them seem to be set strangely. It made my audio weird, like the apm89 bass settings defaulting to -12. And all the hdmi settings being video on port 1. I almost want to do a full reset hoping the actual defaults are better and not have a hidden setting wreaking havoc.

    Does anyone know for sure if “reset to factory defaults” will erase all the rooms I’ve built? That’s what has kept me from wanting to reset so far. It took a long time to setup all the rooms for my 4 family members and I don’t want to do it again. There seems to be no way to save a room to separate memory. So I’m afraid the full factory reset is going to erase them. I’m assuming it would be erased otherwise that isn’t much of a full factory reset.

    Anyone tried?
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