[Rene Lou]

The reason I have a 5.1 dolby setup as well is for my user 3 other family member profiles I only have made 5.1 for them as it's too hard to deal with 7.1.6 for them. So when I watch movies with them I have to pick the 5.1 profile to match theirs so sounds don't get lost. My understanding is user A room sets up the main decoder, and B gets the sound from the same channels that come from user A. So if user A has LSS and LB and no LS, then user B will hear nothing from the surrounds. So I have to downgrade my experience when listening with family members unless I find time to make them all a 7.1.6 profile.

Reason for this behavior is that the channels coming from the same MDS processor for both users. Those channels are fed into both SHARC DSPs in parallel (the SHARC DSPs are running the SVS rendering, e.g. creating the virtual speakers for user A and user B). There is only one Dolby/DTS/Auro processor (MDS) inside th e A16 but two SHARC DSPs for SVS processing:
- the MDS processor converts Dolby/DTS/Auro bitstreams into n-channel PCM and optionally upmixes (with the Dolby/DTS/Auro upmixer) to m-channels
The output from the MDS processor (n- or m-channel PCM) is fed into the two SHARC DSPs:
- SHARC #1 DSP runs SVS for user A
- SHARC #2 DSP runs SVS for user B (or Illusonic upmixer for user A to x-channels in an upcoming firmware)

Result: both users need to have the same count of active virtual speakers, or something gets lost.
If you would like to have two different sets of virtual speakers active for two different users with correct channel processing for both users, you would need a second A16.

Thanks to the capability of the A16 to combine virtual speakers from different PRIR files - instead of 'downgrading' your experience to 5.1 - you could 'upgrade' your family member PRIRs with missing speakers from the BBC room without the need to remeasure (eg: combine their 5.1 measured speakers with 6 dummy-head overhead speakers from the BBC room and the two missing rear speakers to get a 7.1.6 for them as well). Just as an interim-solution until you will get them remeasured.

 

[dsperber]

(Important) Missing features/feature requests

Here's another one I'd like to see:

On the A8, you can immediately display the speaker levels on all channels (and then return to main display) via the EXIT/CANCEL on the remote as follows:

EXIT --
Pressed once, quickly -- displays input level meters, then display times out and returns to preset screen
Pressed twice -- displays input level meters until ended with CANCEL

With the A16, displaying the equivalent "Audio Meters" is currently only selectable as the bottom item on the main Home Page menu screen. So first, you have to BACK to return to the Home Page screen, and then you have to arrow-down to the last item on the menu, and then you have to OK to select it. And then you have to reverse out again (via BACK, etc.) to return to wherever you previously were and with whatever was previously displayed, and now want to return to. This is certainly cumbersome, and nothing simple as the one-click method for looking at channel input levels on the A8.

I propose that a similar one-click method be created on the A16, for instantly presenting the channel input levels without having to do anything more than press a single button. I propose that the one quick press of the SPK button on the A16 remote (which other than when in PRIR and HPEQ calibration mode has no assigned function) be used to "instantly display input channel levels" (i.e. "Audio Meters"), exactly as the EXIT button on the A8 remote does. As with the A8, the Audio Meters display could be presented for say 10 seconds before timing out and returning to whatever previous screen was being shown.

Furthermore, if the A16 remote SPK button is pressed twice, then just as with the A8 the Audio Meters display of the A16 is presented and remains onscreen indefinitely until ended, either with (a) CANCEL, i.e. the red "C" button just above the numeric key pad area on the remote, or (b) BACK, or (c) MENU. Either of these three buttons will exit from Audio Meter display screen back to whatever previous screen was being shown or the Home Page.

In other words, just as there is with the A8 there needs to be a much more convenient and rapid "breakout" method available on the A16 to instantly show/exit the Audio Meters presentation, without "losing your place" with whatever display is currently on the screen and thus having to navigate all over from scratch to return to that point. One click in, one click out.

So... briefly...

==================================================================

When not in PRIR or HPEQ calibration mode, the SPK button has no assigned function. So it's available for programming.

I propose SPK be programmed to be a request for the "instant Audio Meters" display to be presented. Whatever the currently displayed screen is would be remembered, in order to return to it and be re-presented when "instant Audio Meters" is exited.

One quick click of SPK on the A16 remote presents Audio Meters for 10 seconds, after which it times out and display is returned to whatever was onscreen previously. This is just like quickly pressing EXIT once on the A8 remote.

Two quick clicks of SPK on the A16 remote presents Audio Meters indefinitely (same as two clicks of EXIT on the A8 remote), until manually exited via either (a) red C (cancel) key, or (b) BACK key, or (c) MENU on the A16 remote. Either exit method returns display to whatever was onscreen previously, or back to the Home Page. This is like pressing CANCEL on the A8 remote.

====================================================================

 

[bcwang]

Thanks to the capability of the A16 to combine virtual speakers from different PRIR files - instead of 'downgrading' your experience to 5.1 - you could 'upgrade' your family member PRIRs with missing speakers from the BBC room without the need to remeasure (eg: combine their 5.1 measured speakers with 6 dummy-head overhead speakers from the BBC room and the two missing rear speakers to get a 7.1.6 for them as well). Just as an interim-solution until you will get them remeasured.

That's a great idea! I may also try that on myself to get some properly placed 6 overhead speakers. I'll have to test to see if they image correctly. This may be the best time to let the speaker volume normalization to get those volume matched to my other speakers.

 

[audiohobbit]

@dsperber: The speaker map display now acts also as audio meter per virtual speaker. Isn't that enough for everyday use? How often do you use that functionality on the A8? (I'm not sure I ever used this at all...)
Anyone else?

However I had an idea concerning your other request (SOLO/MUTE):
The A8 has 8 LEDs to represent the speakers. If on is muted (no matter if solo or mute mode) then the LED is off. This you can easily see from 3 m away for example.
So my proposal would be: When a virtual speaker of the A8 is muted, leave just an empty box where that speaker is in the speaker map. I think with this you can easily see which speakers are running and which are muted, even from 3 m away.
Because you can solo the speakers in normal mode (not only in Test mode) a line of text in test mode wouldn't be enough.
Or display the word SOLO or MUTE (I'd leave MUTE because that's their wording) in normal mode also and with the word TEST above in TEST mode. With this and empty boxes around muted speakers I think you'd easily recognize what mode you're in.



EDIT: Can we make polls in this forum?

 

[audiohobbit]

A member of german Hifi-Forum made me aware that the Surrey and BBC-room have Dummy-Head measurements as open source online.
So there's the possibility that the Smyths took these measurements and somehow converted it to their PRIR-format. For the Surrey room that could be true (although I think there are more speakers in the PRIR than online), the BBC room however only has ear level speakers online. Interesting are the documents that describe the rooms in more detail. The BBC room has a speaker distance of only 2.1 m, and that you can hear in the PRIR (well at least I could).
Here are the links:
- Surrey room: https://github.com/IoSR-Surrey/IoSR_ListeningRoom_BRIRs
- BBC room: https://www.bbc.co.uk/rd/publications/sbsbrir


When I said few posts ago that you only need a 9.1.6(7.1.4) and 5.1 room, that's not entirely true. I found a few Blurays I have with 6.1 signals: The (old) 5th Element BD (my first one back then) has 6.1 DTS HD HR and Lord of the Rings has 6.1 DD EX.
I just checked 5th Element, where the player decodes the DTS to PCM (at first the Oppo just put out 2ch but I somehow managed that it puts out 8ch). The single rear channel is decoded to the left back channel.

There is no 6.1 layout in the listening rooms. There is a 6.0 with L,R,Lss,Rss,Lb,Rb, no sub. You can reassign the existing speakers but adding the SW channel didn't work. It was there, but no signal routed to it.
So I took a 7.1 room, reassigned Lss and Rss to Ls and Rs (because I think the 6 channel formats don't use side surrounds, but surrounds as in 5.1 plus a back center), reassigned a Cr (center rear) speaker to Lb and assigned no speaker to Rb.
And this seemed to work.
Still have to check for DD EX though.

 

[audiohobbit]

@Fox1977 (if I don't take you for s.o. else): Could you report issues/feature requests etc. from the french forum?

 

[bcwang]

When I said few posts ago that you only need a 9.1.6(7.1.4) and 5.1 room, that's not entirely true. I found a few Blurays I have with 6.1 signals: The (old) 5th Element BD (my first one back then) has 6.1 DTS HD HR and Lord of the Rings has 6.1 DD EX.
I just checked 5th Element, where the player decodes the DTS to PCM (at first the Oppo just put out 2ch but I somehow managed that it puts out 8ch). The single rear channel is decoded to the left back channel.

There is no 6.1 layout in the listening rooms. There is a 6.0 with L,R,Lss,Rss,Lb,Rb, no sub. You can reassign the existing speakers but adding the SW channel didn't work. It was there, but no signal routed to it.
So I took a 7.1 room, reassigned Lss and Rss to Ls and Rs (because I think the 6 channel formats don't use side surrounds, but surrounds as in 5.1 plus a back center), reassigned a Cr (center rear) speaker to Lb and assigned no speaker to Rb.
And this seemed to work.
Still have to check for DD EX though.

You would think the decoder can correctly mix 6.1 content to the appropriate channels when your speaker setup is 9.1.6. It could put the same content into the left and right back channels. It should be set and forget with the Dolby decoder matching any Dolby config to the speaker config you have. Maybe you have to turn on the prologic processing?

It would be ridiculous to have to change your speaker layout based on the movie you are about to watch.

 

[sander99]

It would be ridiculous to have to change your speaker layout based on the movie you are about to watch.

On the one hand you are right, that would be especially cumbersome if you had to do everything with real speakers. Similar regarding the differences between Dolby ATmos, DTX:X and Auro 3D: in systems with real speakers sometimes "compromises" have to be made, and maybe a few extra speakers are used for the really incompatible differences.

On the other hand: the nice thing with the A16 is that we don't have to make any such compromises or buy extra real speakers, if we want we can create/choose the perfect setup for each situation!
(Although we really need some more and easier PRIR measurement methods to make that doable...)

 

[audiohobbit]

I was specifically talking about NOT using the upmixer. Didn't try the upmixer with 6.1 but 7.1, and as I already said, I think it makes still the same "mistake" PLIIx did: When you have a 5.1 signal, and there is a single signal on the left surround for example, it seesm that the upmixer routes this signal to the left SIDE surround, which is wrong. It should route it to the side and back surround so that you have a phantom source between the two, that would be where a real sorround speaker would be (if the side surround is at 90 degree and the back surround at 150 degree, the surround signal would be placed at about 120 degree, this is where a surround in a 5.1 system should be).

I think that this is not ridiculous, but a big advantage of the Realiser. The same advantage as that you can have different rooms with different setups for Atmos, DTS-X (and Auro if this will ever happen).
Of course you could use the DSU, but as I said it makes mistakes. I prefer to have the correct layout. So when I sometimes in the future measure my own PRIRs in my own room, I plan to measure a genuine 6.1 (5.1 + back center), then back- and side-surrounds, and then top speakers, which I then can combine as I wish.
Then I create two listening rooms: One with the 6.1 setup (should work also for 5.1) and one with 9.1.4 (that is what I plan at the moment, could do 9.1.6 also).
Then I'll have 3 presets:
1. 6.1
2. 9.1.x without upmixer
3. 9.1.x WITH upmixer (if I decide to use it on any signal)

 

[Rene Lou]

2) I converted the entire folder but I do not have permissions to upload the converted files back into the Drop Box... nor do I know who ownes the Drop Box to get permissions to do that... and can that happen if there is no agreements in place... I would never give out any of those files if I didn't have permissions to do so.... and even some of those files are offered as OOYH files... so Darin would need a say in this...

Dropbox had it's limitations and everyone with permission to upload files could delete all the files by accident (eg: make a replica of the dropbox folder on your PC to work with and just delete "your" replica on the PC - since it was a replica, dropbox then deleted all the source files on dropbox as well). This was the reason that there was a folder called "__Reminder…Copy not Move" on dropbox.

Since the Smyth Realiser Exchange website is not usable at the moment, I made a copy of the dropbox folder for all of us on Google Drive as follows:

Main folder "PRIR files": https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1MWWb8KELPBbAC5WSHf82UXeV73v1O84W?usp=sharing

The main "PRIR files" folder contains:
1) a read-only folder of the A8 files (copy of dropbox as of Sept 2019)
2) a read-only folder of the A8 files similar to 1), but with converted PRIR0xxx files as PRIR2xxx files (ready for the A16)
3) a read-only A16 folder for new A16 PRIR files
4) a folder called "upload new PRIR files here" where everyone can upload files by using this link: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1O9vvj7fa-CiXVVoR0LCyRB9EFtsZMBo2?usp=sharing

@Dixter: since you converted the PRIR0xxx files to PRIR2xxx files with your A8 already, can you upload them to the upload folder 4) ? I will then move those files to the folder 2). In folder 2) I added a list of the PRIR0xxx files currently missing.

@Everyone: if you want to share your A16 PRIR files with other users, just copy it to the upload folder 4) inside a directory with your name and I will move this directory with your files to the folder 3). To be able to upload, you will need to log-in to your Google account - if you don't have one, just request one (it's free).

 

[bcwang]

I was specifically talking about NOT using the upmixer. Didn't try the upmixer with 6.1 but 7.1, and as I already said, I think it makes still the same "mistake" PLIIx did: When you have a 5.1 signal, and there is a single signal on the left surround for example, it seesm that the upmixer routes this signal to the left SIDE surround, which is wrong. It should route it to the side and back surround so that you have a phantom source between the two, that would be where a real sorround speaker would be (if the side surround is at 90 degree and the back surround at 150 degree, the surround signal would be placed at about 120 degree, this is where a surround in a 5.1 system should be).

I think that this is not ridiculous, but a big advantage of the Realiser. The same advantage as that you can have different rooms with different setups for Atmos, DTS-X (and Auro if this will ever happen).
Of course you could use the DSU, but as I said it makes mistakes. I prefer to have the correct layout. So when I sometimes in the future measure my own PRIRs in my own room, I plan to measure a genuine 6.1 (5.1 + back center), then back- and side-surrounds, and then top speakers, which I then can combine as I wish.
Then I create two listening rooms: One with the 6.1 setup (should work also for 5.1) and one with 9.1.4 (that is what I plan at the moment, could do 9.1.6 also).
Then I'll have 3 presets:
1. 6.1
2. 9.1.x without upmixer
3. 9.1.x WITH upmixer (if I decide to use it on any signal)

What I meant as ridiculous, is that Dolby not having a pre-defined method to convert from any of their movie output configurations to another dolby speaker configuration automatically. If this wasn't built in, it would be chaos. I think they must have thought of this otherwise the home theater market would be complaining like crazy. The Realiser can solve a lot of this because of it's flexibility, but most people with fixed speakers and a receiver would be upset if Dolby and DTS didn't already solve this in the decoder.

Examples where it needs to work.
-5.1 movie with 4.1 speaker setup. Dolby decoder knows to map the center channel to L+R speakers otherwise all the dialog would be missing.
-5.1 movie with 7.1 speaker setup. Dolby decoder knows LS and RS channel has to somehow map to LSS, LSB, RSS, RSB somehow otherwise all surround channel information would be silent

So this 6.1 channel movie should have the same thing applied. The decoder should know what would have ended up in a back channel in a 6.1 system would map to the pair of LSB and RSB channels in a 7.1 system. If it doesn't do that right, it's a mistake in how Dolby defined the mapping or an implementation bug in the dolby decoder.

It is my opinion that Dolby thought of this and implemented things this way (even if some corner case bugs exist), otherwise it would be ridiculous for consumers to modify their physical speaker setup and mappings when switching movies. No one will do that. Most people will setup the best system they can and expect all lower and higher levels of movie speaker configurations to automatically map to their setup as best as it can.

 

[audiohobbit]

Your partially correct. But I think the logic where to put the signal is mainly in the AV-Receivers, not in the Dolby Codec. If you have no center speaker for example. The Dolby decoder doesn't get that information, this is the AVR that mixes the center channel to the L+R speakers. It's the same with bass management: The Dolby decoder delivers full channel signals + LFE. The receiver has to do the rest.
Upmixing on the other hand you have to specifically turn on in most (if not all) receivers. Otherwise the surround channels of a 5.1 signal will be routed to the side surrounds (I think). If you turn on Dolby upmixer (PLIIx in my old AVR) it mixes the surrounds to back and side surrounds but not entirely correct. Equal signals on both surrounds are mixed to the back surrounds, but if there is specifically a single signal on one of the surrounds it is afaik solely put to the side surround I think.

I don't know what the Realiser does if you have less channels specified than are in the signal. For example no center.

 

[Eich1eeF]

Your partially correct. But I think the logic where to put the signal is mainly in the AV-Receivers, not in the Dolby Codec. If you have no center speaker for example. The Dolby decoder doesn't get that information, this is the AVR that mixes the center channel to the L+R speakers. It's the same with bass management: The Dolby decoder delivers full channel signals + LFE. The receiver has to do the rest.

That's also not entirely right. I don't know about non-Atmos dolby digital (and I think it's likely that you're correct for that), but Atmos has has at least the rendering and/or downmix to 7.1, 5.1 and 2.0 covered with various options: https://developerkb.dolby.com/suppo...-do-the-5-1-and-stereo-downmix-settings-work-

 

[audiohobbit]

Yes I'm talking about non-Atmos Dolby and non DTS-X DTS-signals!
Dolby Atmos should be rendered correctly to the speaker layout you have, at least to those that are listed in the A16 manual appendix.

But for "Legacy" Dolby signals things could be different with the Realiser than with an AVR. I think if you have 5.1 signal and a 4.0 setup with no center and no sub, the center channel could be lost (and even the LFE because it seems that you can only mix it the other way round: main channel bass to the subwoofer channel).
The Realiser(s) are not as sophisticated as an AVR with respect to these things. Just look at bass management: With the Realiser you have to decide yourself if the +10 dB LFE boost is needed or not. With an AVR you never have to bother with that normally.

Still have to test the DD EX bistream though.
Only tested DTS 6.1 HD HR which was decoded by the Oppo player to 8ch PCM, and there the back center is put to the left back channel. And if I remember right, then with my old Yamaha AVR, if you have 6.1 system you have to connect tha back center to the left back channel.

 

[Dixter]

Dropbox had it's limitations and everyone with permission to upload files could delete all the files by accident (eg: make a replica of the dropbox folder on your PC to work with and just delete "your" replica on the PC - since it was a replica, dropbox then deleted all the source files on dropbox as well). This was the reason that there was a folder called "__Reminder…Copy not Move" on dropbox.

Since the Smyth Realiser Exchange website is not usable at the moment, I made a copy of the dropbox folder for all of us on Google Drive as follows:

Main folder "PRIR files": https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1MWWb8KELPBbAC5WSHf82UXeV73v1O84W?usp=sharing

The main "PRIR files" folder contains:
1) a read-only folder of the A8 files (copy of dropbox as of Sept 2019)
2) a read-only folder of the A8 files similar to 1), but with converted PRIR0xxx files as PRIR2xxx files (ready for the A16)
3) a read-only A16 folder for new A16 PRIR files
4) a folder called "upload new PRIR files here" where everyone can upload files by using this link: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1O9vvj7fa-CiXVVoR0LCyRB9EFtsZMBo2?usp=sharing

@Dixter: since you converted the PRIR0xxx files to PRIR2xxx files with your A8 already, can you upload them to the upload folder 4) ? I will then move those files to the folder 2). In folder 2) I added a list of the PRIR0xxx files currently missing.

@Everyone: if you want to share your A16 PRIR files with other users, just copy it to the upload folder 4) inside a directory with your name and I will move this directory with your files to the folder 3). To be able to upload, you will need to log-in to your Google account - if you don't have one, just request one (it's free).

Ok.. I just uploaded 5 PRIR files that will now need to be moved over... these are ready to input to the A16