SMSL M500 MQA DAC
Jun 28, 2020 at 3:01 PM Post #31 of 144
Usually what you get with higher end stuff is build quality, support, long service life, better power supply, and a better analog section. When I read this thread I saw people talking about occasional dropouts using MQA. That would be a deal killer for me so I decided not to buy the SMSL.

My gear plays MQA flawlessly. Personal decision whether you want the best bang for the buck or want to buy something once and not have to buy it again in 2 or 3 years.
 
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Jun 28, 2020 at 3:10 PM Post #32 of 144
Usually what you get with higher end stuff is build quality, support, long service life, better power supply, and a better analog section. When I read this thread I saw people talking about occasional dropouts using MQA. That would be a deal killer for me so I decided not to buy the SMSL.

My gear plays MQA flawlessly. Personal decision whether you want the best bang for the buck or want to buy something once and not have to buy it again in 2 or 3 years.
Thanks. See that's the thing. The way DAC performances have gone up...there is no point in spending much on them and that frequently. The new M500 boasts a SINAD of 120db which is better than all those Chords and Myteks etc. What confuses me is if the best DAC is the most cleanest and the most neutral...kinda not being there in the chain at all perceptively that is! These Chinese DACs are doing that at 10 times less price! So the question arises: is there something in the SQ department that people are missing out on? You see I easily afford the Chord Qutest for example...but I would not buy it if a $330 M500 does more with MQA and with more options..provided the SQ is not compromised! So that's why I asked from people who have tried expensive gear...if they felt something deteriorating when trying out ChiFi.

As for build quality and output stage, the M500 is a Solid built DAC...mine never had any problems doing MQA! The extra optical is really handy and it's balanced for $330 when I bought it...but you never know if you're missing out on some magic so hence the question...
 
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Jun 28, 2020 at 3:26 PM Post #33 of 144
Thanks. See that's the thing. The way DAC performances have gone up...there is no point in spending much on them and that frequently. The new M500 boasts a SINAD of 120db which is better than all those Chords and Myteks etc. What confuses me is if the best DAC is the most cleanest and the most neutral...kinda not being there in the chain at all perceptively that is! These Chinese DACs are doing that at 10 times less price! So the question arises: is there something in the SQ department that people are missing out on? You see I easily afford the Chord Qutest for example...but I would not buy it if a $330 M500 does more with MQA and with more options..provided the SQ is not compromised! So that's why I asked from people who have tried expensive gear...if they felt something deteriorating when trying out ChiFi.

As for build quality and output stage, the M500 is a Solid built DAC...mine never had any problems doing MQA! The extra optical is really handy and it's balanced for $330 when I bought it...but you never know if you're missing out on some magic so hence the question...

Measurements are not very well correlated to how good something sounds. Manufacturers of el-cheapo gear and even some expensive gear have been known to take considerable liberties when publishing specs. And the one guru publishing his measurements has many disciples but no independent verification of anything. You have to cast a jaundiced eye over that stuff or you will believe anything.

Nobody says a DAC that costs 10 times more sounds 10 times better. All the European DACs have distortion far lower than the threshold of hearing and SINAD better than 120 dB. Does it make any difference? Once you can't hear it becomes an advertising war, has nothing to do with sound. I'm not interested in cheap, disposable stuff no matter how trendy it is or how many people love it without comparing it to higher end gear. When Chifi stuff breaks, it goes into the garbage. If you need replacement parts you go fishing on aliexpress, maybe you find something, maybe you don't. I bought a few chifi items when I got back into digital and I wasted my money. For me it's a no-brainer to buy better gear.

As far as build quality, get a higher end DAC in front of you and compare it. There are obvious, significant differences there.
 
Jun 28, 2020 at 3:45 PM Post #34 of 144
Measurements are not very well correlated to how good something sounds. Manufacturers of el-cheapo gear and even some expensive gear have been known to take considerable liberties when publishing specs. And the one guru publishing his measurements has many disciples but no independent verification of anything. You have to cast a jaundiced eye over that stuff or you will believe anything.

Nobody says a DAC that costs 10 times more sounds 10 times better. All the European DACs have distortion far lower than the threshold of hearing and SINAD better than 120 dB. Does it make any difference? Once you can't hear it becomes an advertising war, has nothing to do with sound. I'm not interested in cheap, disposable stuff no matter how trendy it is or how many people love it without comparing it to higher end gear. When Chifi stuff breaks, it goes into the garbage. If you need replacement parts you go fishing on aliexpress, maybe you find something, maybe you don't. I bought a few chifi items when I got back into digital and I wasted my money. For me it's a no-brainer to buy better gear.

As far as build quality, get a higher end DAC in front of you and compare it. There are obvious, significant differences there.
You're right! I wouldn't trust the Guru either unless we had posts like this: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ly-“thermal-issue”-not-“golden-sample”.10267/
attempting to cross check the Guru measurements as well as the possibility of vendors sending out golden samples...
 
Jun 28, 2020 at 3:49 PM Post #35 of 144
You're right! I wouldn't trust the Guru either unless we had posts like this: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/smsl-m500-dac-only-“thermal-issue”-not-“golden-sample”.10267/
attempting to cross check the Guru measurements as well as the possibility of vendors sending out golden samples...

Unknown Chinese guys cross-checking measurements of other unknown guys? Producing the same types of graphs? I trust the WHO more to tell me corona started in Europe in March...the site feels like an advertising scam.

Seriously, come on. I'm not worried about golden samples. The problem is much deeper than that. Anyway, everybody is free to spend to their bank account's delight :wink:
 
Jun 29, 2020 at 12:49 AM Post #36 of 144
So the question arises: is there something in the SQ department that people are missing out on?

Nope.

Pick you poison. BS marketing, biased/sponsored reviews, self-justification, ego, uninformed buyers, 'expensive is better' mentality, ego, hype-train, argument based on perception/feeling, ego, inability to distinguish placebo, ego, fanboyism, group shaming, objection to science, ego, etc.... or just human nature.

Assuming most decently-built modern audio components irrelevant to price are capable of reaching levels that exceed human hearing, ideal sound at that point (surpassing measurable deficiencies) should be 'subjective.'

Even from a design standpoint, good chunk of high-end audio gear compared to other hobbies are underwhelming and look like a DIY products at best.

As @gimmeheadroom mentioned, you generally do get better build quality, parts, service, and most importantly, self-pleasure with higher-end gear. But if we're talking purely SQ or 'ideal sound,' past a certain point, it's all subjective.

DACs can sound 'different.' But different doesn't equate to 'better.'

You'd be better off selecting DACs based on needed function, ideal design, proven build quality, ease of use, first-rate product-service, and stellar track record.

Be wary of head-fiers/reviewers that goes overboard with DAC impressions/comparisons.

"How does DAC A sound compared to DAC B?"

"Oh my god! The soundstage on this DAC puts me in the 7th row at the Carnegie hall and the lows extend down to oblivion. The imaging/separation presents 16 different layers and puts the vocals at approximately 6 ft in front of me. The velvety sound makes the guitar weeps gently and the soul-grabbing mid range........."

You get the picture.

of course YMMV :L3000:
 
Jun 29, 2020 at 11:57 AM Post #37 of 144
Nope.

Pick you poison. BS marketing, biased/sponsored reviews, self-justification, ego, uninformed buyers, 'expensive is better' mentality, ego, hype-train, argument based on perception/feeling, ego, inability to distinguish placebo, ego, fanboyism, group shaming, objection to science, ego, etc.... or just human nature.

Assuming most decently-built modern audio components irrelevant to price are capable of reaching levels that exceed human hearing, ideal sound at that point (surpassing measurable deficiencies) should be 'subjective.'

Even from a design standpoint, good chunk of high-end audio gear compared to other hobbies are underwhelming and look like a DIY products at best.

As @gimmeheadroom mentioned, you generally do get better build quality, parts, service, and most importantly, self-pleasure with higher-end gear. But if we're talking purely SQ or 'ideal sound,' past a certain point, it's all subjective.

DACs can sound 'different.' But different doesn't equate to 'better.'

You'd be better off selecting DACs based on needed function, ideal design, proven build quality, ease of use, first-rate product-service, and stellar track record.

Be wary of head-fiers/reviewers that goes overboard with DAC impressions/comparisons.

"How does DAC A sound compared to DAC B?"

"Oh my god! The soundstage on this DAC puts me in the 7th row at the Carnegie hall and the lows extend down to oblivion. The imaging/separation presents 16 different layers and puts the vocals at approximately 6 ft in front of me. The velvety sound makes the guitar weeps gently and the soul-grabbing mid range........."

You get the picture.

of course YMMV :L3000:
Thanks. I agree to all the BS marketing surrounding high end gear...

At the same time, theoretically, I'm sure you've heard it before...but...DACs shouldn't sound like anything ideally isn't it? I mean their job is to convert D to A and the cleaner they are...the better they should sound...off course now most DACs are clean beyond human hearing!

I always think if super clean DACs sounding different or better may be a personal bias...kinda like 'self-pleasure' as you said. The thought process goes somewhat like this: I've spend 10 times the price of a super clean Chinese tech for to buy this highly expensive English gear...it should be everything that you've mentioned in the last part of your post! I know a DBT would really be beneficial in this case but very few people seem to have done that! I mean headphones sound different...you can see that in the frequency response....but most clean DACs sound linear at best...I wonder if you really CAN hear better music from high costing DACs.

As for what more money gets you, yes! Better built and maybe better components...but those are jack crap unless implemented properly! Chinese tech nowadays is really shining in that department too. I mean take Topping for example, their DACs are super solid built with all that CNC BS...i guess what I am trying to say is it should be clear at some point for beginner to amateur audiophiles if buying expensive DACs does or doesn't get you better SQ (ignoring the built as thats getting pretty close and you can feel it!) coz expensive headphones and to a certain extent expensive Amplifiers do make an easily perceivable improvement in SQ which can be related to the investment you make...NOT true for DACs or so I've read!
 
Jun 29, 2020 at 12:43 PM Post #38 of 144
Currently the M500 is 100% without any noise even at max vol, strictly no distorted high frequencies, no loss of low frequencies (even 10hz adjustment on PEQ is listenable instantly, no rumble added with clear deep bass impacts. and somewhere it's about all we ask and couldn't get easily till 2020 (at that price tag).
After this, adding some qualitative transformation of the digital sound through the DAC is maybe not be necessary for everybody.

I recognize that the transfer of the sound from my dlna receiver (Windows UMPC for Qobuz, DSD, Flac) through the M500 + THX887 is completely neutral, amazingly detailed and powerful as I never got till now, when I listen this music with the Heddphone (also amazing).
It's definitely a huge step from the last ten years at this price tag (less than 3500$ all included) which is amazing to my ears and wallet !
 
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Jun 29, 2020 at 10:09 PM Post #39 of 144
Thanks. I agree to all the BS marketing surrounding high end gear...

At the same time, theoretically, I'm sure you've heard it before...but...DACs shouldn't sound like anything ideally isn't it? I mean their job is to convert D to A and the cleaner they are...the better they should sound...off course now most DACs are clean beyond human hearing!

I always think if super clean DACs sounding different or better may be a personal bias...kinda like 'self-pleasure' as you said. The thought process goes somewhat like this: I've spend 10 times the price of a super clean Chinese tech for to buy this highly expensive English gear...it should be everything that you've mentioned in the last part of your post! I know a DBT would really be beneficial in this case but very few people seem to have done that! I mean headphones sound different...you can see that in the frequency response....but most clean DACs sound linear at best...I wonder if you really CAN hear better music from high costing DACs.

As for what more money gets you, yes! Better built and maybe better components...but those are jack crap unless implemented properly! Chinese tech nowadays is really shining in that department too. I mean take Topping for example, their DACs are super solid built with all that CNC BS...i guess what I am trying to say is it should be clear at some point for beginner to amateur audiophiles if buying expensive DACs does or doesn't get you better SQ (ignoring the built as thats getting pretty close and you can feel it!) coz expensive headphones and to a certain extent expensive Amplifiers do make an easily perceivable improvement in SQ which can be related to the investment you make...NOT true for DACs or so I've read!
My experience with at least 15 different DAC's the past 10 years is that they for sure can sound very different, and agree that increasing price does not guarantee a subjectively better match to your preferences and other equipment. But I think important to remember, since you mentioned beginner audiophiles, that technical hearing capability and sometimes passion for music may peak when you are young, so it is a good idea to explore as many options as possible personally (including live music as a reference) to make the most of the time on the crest of the wave...
 
Jun 30, 2020 at 2:56 AM Post #40 of 144
Is there a way I could use the M500 with my Windows 10 PC via USB without having to look at the PC screen and maybe operated by my phone. I use Tidal HiFi via PC application but don't know if I can stream using my phone to operate Tidal app on PC which could then connect to the M500 via USB.

I could use Chromecast Audio optical to one of the M500 optical ports and operate by my phone but I have some specific EQ settings for my headphones using Peace EQ and APO that work only via PC mode...as Chromecast can't be EQ'd (other than the very generic Bass/Treble options)

My current setup is Tidal HiFi via Win 10 PC/Audioquest Forest USB/M500 V2 (on its way)/THX789/HiFiMan Arya/Sennheiser HD800S (both with EQ) - All Balanced. Optical ports of the DAC used for TV audio and Chromecast Audio.

Appreciate the help!
 
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Jun 30, 2020 at 4:07 AM Post #41 of 144
Mconnect on iphone or android is cheap and perfect for all files on a NAS (minimserver), any W10 Upnp server (Kodi Foobar), Tidal, Qobuz, Onedrive, icloud, etc... with sleeves, searching , sorting functions etc
Then, on the PC, we can use any dlna renderer like foobar2000, Neutron player, Kodi, etc with USB out direct to the M500 (I use Neutron Player W10 for the versatility of the PEQ functions).
 
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Jun 30, 2020 at 11:10 AM Post #42 of 144
Mconnect on iphone or android is cheap and perfect for all files on a NAS (minimserver), any W10 Upnp server (Kodi Foobar), Tidal, Qobuz, Onedrive, icloud, etc... with sleeves, searching , sorting functions etc
Then, on the PC, we can use any dlna renderer like foobar2000, Neutron player, Kodi, etc with USB out direct to the M500 (I use Neutron Player W10 for the versatility of the PEQ functions).
Thanks. Will the Neutron player allow for controlling Tidal app or streaming with all the search capabilities of the app? Spotify is good in this case as their PC app can be controlled via the phone app directly to play on PC
 
Jun 30, 2020 at 11:23 AM Post #43 of 144
Thanks. Will the Neutron player allow for controlling Tidal app or streaming with all the search capabilities of the app? Spotify is good in this case as their PC app can be controlled via the phone app directly to play on PC

Mconnect on the Iphone will control everything concerning Tidal and Qobuz and send links to Neutron which act as just a dlna renderer with access to DSP & PEQ.
Neutron can control the music but not doing any search/playlists or any selection in Tidal/Qobuz directly, all of this can be done with Mconnect and is doing it very well and at his best with an Ipad. I am using it for months now and really feel convenient to use.

But servers are limited
But regarding in the app store they say are limited to :
- Your iPhone and your iPad.
- All Compatible Servers UPnP: PC & NAS.
- Internet Music : TIDAL et Qobuz. (Only)
- Integrated Cloud Server in App: OneDrive & Dropbox.

So no Spotify
 
Jul 24, 2020 at 4:27 PM Post #44 of 144
Just got my M500. sw 1.6 - hw 1.3 not sure it's ver 2. Downloaded the driver sw from SMSL site onto laptop. I use Tidal for the MQA experience, which I'm new too. I'm using the USB input. So far everything is sounding great both on HP and the line out to my hifi. What I'm finding is that the display shows MQA logo with the green or blue led and 44.1 /48/96/192 for different tracks. My question is the display showing the sampling rate or the full unfold output. Have not seen any magenta light
 
Jul 29, 2020 at 5:56 AM Post #45 of 144
Just got a SMSL M500 (Version 2). Just some very quick impressions but I will say, I am seriously impressed. It's a special gem. Nice and weighty, not to big and feels solid. Heaps of functions, I'll be using it via the USB to my Samsung S20 and poweramp using WAV files. Headphones I've been using are the Ultrasone Edition 11, Focal Clear and Elegia, Audeze Sine DX and some iems. Tin Hifi P1, Audiosense T800. All I can say is it has more than enough power to drive the headphones and iems mentioned above. Amazing dynamics and clarity with a wide and spacious soundstage. I won't get detailed yet with what I hear but I do feel it needs a bit of burn in. But damn, and I mean DAMN!!!!! This thing has amazing SQ, and for the price it's bloody amazing. I used to own a Chord Mojo, easily and immediatly this sounds better to my ears. More detail, more clarity, better instrument separation and imaging with a beautiful and exapansive soundstage. Truly am loving what I am hearing. More to come :)
 

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