[JaZZ]

Quote:

Originally Posted by b0dhi /img/forum/go_quote.gif My post was the only one that could conceivably have anything to do with what you said. Either that, or you were rebutting the air. Anyway I'm seeing a pattern here.

Of course after your mentioning of graphs showing measuring differences the HeadRoom graphs came to mind (and maybe others had the same reaction), but I wasn't stating that you were referring to those.


Quote:

Moving on: one of the graphs is this one: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/4205745-post33.html. You can see the rest of the thread for further measurement details.

Thanks for the interesting link. As to the frequency response, I wouldn't exclude measuring variances also in this case, but it doesn't really look like this, since they're located in the midrange. The deviating harmonic-distortion figures are barely caused by measuring variances, they must be caused by the balanced drive, as I see it.

(As to the «pattern», if I'm interpreting it correctly: no, I had no further motive other than the thread subject, nothing personal. So sorry for the misunderstanding!)
.

 

[Steve Eddy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by glitch39 /img/forum/go_quote.gif on my setup, I am able to switch between SE and balanced while keeping the same cans, cables, IC's, source and amp. Even when I volume match between the two, there is a DEFINITE change in soundstage width and sense of space/separation, in favor of balanced.

Can you explain exactly how you're able to switch between single ended and balanced while keeping the same cans, cables, ICs, source and amp?

Looking at the LD Mk VI+ (the only Mk VI model I can find on their forum), I don't see any provisions for switching between single ended and balanced while keeping the same cables.

Also, how are you level matching? By ear, or by instrument? If by instrument, how close are you matching?

Thanks.

k

 

[glitch39]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Koyaan I. Sqatsi /img/forum/go_quote.gif Can you explain exactly how you're able to switch between single ended and balanced while keeping the same cans, cables, ICs, source and amp? Looking at the LD Mk VI+ (the only Mk VI model I can find on their forum), I don't see any provisions for switching between single ended and balanced while keeping the same cables. Also, how are you level matching? By ear, or by instrument? If by instrument, how close are you matching? Thanks. k

the VI+ has SE output on the back and 4-pin XLR on the front.

my input remains to be on balanced though - from my zapped zhaolu. Sorry if I did not make that clear in the previous post.

I level matched by ear and instrument and used several test tones and white noise tracks as guide. when I play my music tracks that I am very familiar with, I can definitely distinguish two major changes:

- wider soundstage and separation
- improved intrument placement and layering

everything else is the same - IC, cable, cans, DAC, amp, tube complement. Like I said, I do not intend to dispute the scientific facts. I only want to enjoy the music.

 

[Steve Eddy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by glitch39 /img/forum/go_quote.gif the VI+ has SE output on the back and 4-pin XLR on the front.

Yes, I see that it has a conventional 1/4" output on the back.

But as far as I'm able to determine, the Mk VI has a transformer coupled output. And depending on how that 1/4" jack is wired compared to the XLR outputs, there can be a number of differences other than simply balanced versus single ended.

For example, if they're only using half of the output transformer's secondary for the single ended output, you have two things happening.

First, the output impedance would be lower compared to the balanced outputs. Second, the headphone's impedance would get reflected back to the output tubes at a higher ratio meaning that the output tubes would be seeing a much higher impedance than when the headphone is connected across the entire secondary.

So both the amp and the headphones would behave differently between balanced and single ended in ways which don't have anything to do with just the headphones being driven from a balanced or single ended source.

In order to make such a comparison all else must remain equal, i.e. same output impedance, same load impedance, same levels, etc.

And I'm afraid that doesn't seem to be the case here. Though this could better be assessed if a schematic was available showing how the various outputs were being derived.

Quote:

Like I said, I do not intend to dispute the scientific facts. I only want to enjoy the music.

Understood.

k

 

[glitch39]

on the front 4-pin XLR, you can also tap from R+ and L+ and to common ground to get SE output. with this setup, all else remains equal. an adapter can be made for this.

The MKVI design is OTL/OCL, I believe

 

[Steve Eddy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by glitch39 /img/forum/go_quote.gif on the front 4-pin XLR, you can also tap from R+ and L+ and to common ground to get SE output. with this setup, all else remains equal. an adapter can be made for this.

If it doesn't use an output transformer, then I don't see how you would be able to do this without problems. If each channel's balanced output is derived from two bridged channels, you can't just common the grounds.

Quote:

The MKVI design is OTL/OCL, I believe

They say it's OCL, but they don't say it's OTL. And if it is in fact OTL, then either they're using two power transformers or one of those cans on top is empty.

k

 

[glitch39]

from the XLR input where there's +, - and GND (x2 for left and right), the GND is common, I'm almost positive. I'd need to break out the DMM to verify this.

If I am correct, then that's how you could derive SE from the 4-pin. The 2 x 3-pin XLR output in the back is also designed to drive the headphones.

And the GND on those 3-pin jacks are also common. So you can make an adapter that taps the + from each channel off of the 2 x 3-pin XLR and common to a female 1/4" TRS

The two top covers contain trafos. I took out the covers and verified. So it's not empty....

 

[glitch39]

back to the OP's topic, the SQ improvement I have heard (and my wife as well - who hates HF because of the wallet drain, to make a point on how unbiased she is

).

These cannot be attributed to volume mismatch:

- wider soundstage and separation
- improved intrument placement and layering

 

[haloxt]

All this talk about ground is confusing me. What do you guys think of portable balanced amp (mp3 player size)? Feasible and worthwhile? I like my headphone setup's sq but it's about 50x bigger than I want my headphone setup to be.

 

[jcx]

I doubt a commercial market for balanced portable amps exists

I'd guess most portable amps are used with IEM or small on-ear folders - 2x XLR or even the less common 4-pin XLR balanced connectors would be bigger than the headphones and make the amp box a little large too – so you’d need to get the world to accept a new standard for compact 4 pin connector and to start recabling IEMs

also in audiophile hierarchy Class A operation is expected by the time you look to bridged/balanced operation - Class A is a little hard on battery life

if you don't mind a pound of batteries in a paperback book form factor - with limited run time...

I have been known to take my SA-5000 and iPod Nano to nearby resturants when dining alone

 

[Shike]

Quote:

Originally Posted by JaZZ /img/forum/go_quote.gif Just for the fun...

Two issues:

1) I fail to see how that's even relevant.

and

2) He's right.


glitch39, this is sound science. Subjectivity means zero here without something beyond anecdotal evidence to prove it.

 

[Steve Eddy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by glitch39 /img/forum/go_quote.gif from the XLR input where there's +, - and GND (x2 for left and right), the GND is common, I'm almost positive. I'd need to break out the DMM to verify this. If I am correct, then that's how you could derive SE from the 4-pin. The 2 x 3-pin XLR output in the back is also designed to drive the headphones. And the GND on those 3-pin jacks are also common. So you can make an adapter that taps the + from each channel off of the 2 x 3-pin XLR and common to a female 1/4" TRS

Providing you're correct, then yes, that could work. I was cautioning against using the positives of each channel for left and right and then commoning the negatives.

Quote:

The two top covers contain trafos. I took out the covers and verified. So it's not empty....

Hehehe. And if this thing is OTL, they must be power transformers.

k

 

[Steve Eddy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jcx /img/forum/go_quote.gif I doubt a commercial market for balanced portable amps exists

But where was the commercial market for balanced headphone amps before someone started making balanced headphone amps?

Gotta start somewhere, no?

Quote:

I'd guess most portable amps are used with IEM or small on-ear folders - 2x XLR or even the less common 4-pin XLR balanced connectors would be bigger than the headphones and make the amp box a little large too – so you’d need to get the world to accept a new standard for compact 4 pin connector and to start recabling IEMs

Wouldn't have to recable them. Just reterminate them. Four contact 1/8" phone plugs and jacks are readily available.

k

 

[Steve Eddy]

Oh yeah, and if you could accommodate a little extra room, you could perhaps use a couple of the little Edcor PC600/600 trannies. Then you could just stick with a regular 1/8" TRS.

k

 

[xnor]

Very interesting topic. Thanks for bringing it up Oedipus Rex, I was about to ask the same.

JaZZ, what's the point in throwing random off-topic quotes into a discussion like this? To make fun out of other people? Your reputation is suffering badly ...


Btw, I've heard an effect in direct comparison – in favor of unbalanced... funny isn't it.