Single tube amps vs multiple tubes amps
Jun 18, 2017 at 9:06 PM Thread Starter Post #1 of 9

kuutan

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Hi all,
I'm still pretty new to the audio party and I tried researching but didn't find anything.

I told my audiophile friend that I wanted to pick up a single tube amp on the local ad but he suggested I should always get a tube amp with at least two tubes...i forgot the reason he told me as I was drinking a lot.

Is there really more benefits to multiple tube amps over single tube amps?
 
Jun 19, 2017 at 12:43 AM Post #2 of 9
Generally amps with more than one tube are usually more powerful.


Like if there are two tubes, each tube would power each side of your headphone/speakers, rather it all coming from one tube.
 
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Jun 19, 2017 at 10:06 PM Post #4 of 9
Hi all,
I'm still pretty new to the audio party and I tried researching but didn't find anything.

I told my audiophile friend that I wanted to pick up a single tube amp on the local ad but he suggested I should always get a tube amp with at least two tubes...i forgot the reason he told me as I was drinking a lot.

Is there really more benefits to multiple tube amps over single tube amps?

That depends on why one amp has one or more tubes.

Some amps have dual channel tubes like the 12AX7, others use single channel tubes like the 6DJ8. These are for preamps, or the preamp stages on integrated amps and headphone amps. Using the 12AX7 means you only use one tube where you need two 6DJ8s. Similarly, the Little Dot MkII and Darkvoice DV336SE are both OTL - Output Transformerless - amplifiers, but the DV336se uses a dual channel preamp and power tube. Power ratings are just about the same - more tubes doesn't always equate to more power for example (or even better channel separation).

In some cases you also have hybrid amplifiers which have a tube preamp stage and a solid state output stage. So you can find a Schiit Vali with two mini tubes and then the Vali2 uses just one tube. Here power delivery isn't affected by the tubes - since the Vali2 and a bunch of other hybrids use solid state output stages (running either Class A or A/B), and the tubes are preamp tubes, all they affect are gain and noise. Also, a Little Dot MkII and Schiit Valhalla2 being OTL amplifiers would have more power at 300ohms than at 32ohms, but even their 300ohm output is a heck of a lot lower than the output from the Vali2. At the same time the Lyr uses two tubes, but they're only preamp tubes and it's the solid state output stage that kicks out 6w/ch at 32ohms.

In short, the number of tubes doesn't determine the quality of the amp - that still depends more on the circuit design and the quality of the tube/s in use. Having more tubes just means more tubes to replace, although in some cases it might be easier to find two matched tubes than a vintage dual channel tube that measures well on both channels.
 
Jun 19, 2017 at 10:19 PM Post #5 of 9
That depends on why one amp has one or more tubes.

Some amps have dual channel tubes like the 12AX7, others use single channel tubes like the 6DJ8. These are for preamps, or the preamp stages on integrated amps and headphone amps. Using the 12AX7 means you only use one tube where you need two 6DJ8s. Similarly, the Little Dot MkII and Darkvoice DV336SE are both OTL - Output Transformerless - amplifiers, but the DV336se uses a dual channel preamp and power tube. Power ratings are just about the same - more tubes doesn't always equate to more power for example (or even better channel separation).

In some cases you also have hybrid amplifiers which have a tube preamp stage and a solid state output stage. So you can find a Schiit Vali with two mini tubes and then the Vali2 uses just one tube. Here power delivery isn't affected by the tubes - since the Vali2 and a bunch of other hybrids use solid state output stages (running either Class A or A/B), and the tubes are preamp tubes, all they affect are gain and noise. Also, a Little Dot MkII and Schiit Valhalla2 being OTL amplifiers would have more power at 300ohms than at 32ohms, but even their 300ohm output is a heck of a lot lower than the output from the Vali2. At the same time the Lyr uses two tubes, but they're only preamp tubes and it's the solid state output stage that kicks out 6w/ch at 32ohms.

In short, the number of tubes doesn't determine the quality of the amp - that still depends more on the circuit design and the quality of the tube/s in use. Having more tubes just means more tubes to replace, although in some cases it might be easier to find two matched tubes than a vintage dual channel tube that measures well on both channels.

Thank you so much for the awesome information! I've learned quite a bit from reading that.
 
Jun 20, 2017 at 10:50 PM Post #6 of 9
Threads like this could go on forever. When you find an amp that you prefer, it should end there. Oddly enough, it can have less to do about price, number of tubes etc, but so much more to do about the synergy of the complete system, and what YOU like. Having said that, don't be too tempted by 'too good to be true' deals. You already know why.
 
Jun 21, 2017 at 3:24 AM Post #7 of 9
That depends on why one amp has one or more tubes.

Some amps have dual channel tubes like the 12AX7, others use single channel tubes like the 6DJ8. These are for preamps, or the preamp stages on integrated amps and headphone amps. Using the 12AX7 means you only use one tube where you need two 6DJ8s. Similarly, the Little Dot MkII and Darkvoice DV336SE are both OTL - Output Transformerless - amplifiers, but the DV336se uses a dual channel preamp and power tube. Power ratings are just about the same - more tubes doesn't always equate to more power for example (or even better channel separation).

In some cases you also have hybrid amplifiers which have a tube preamp stage and a solid state output stage. So you can find a Schiit Vali with two mini tubes and then the Vali2 uses just one tube. Here power delivery isn't affected by the tubes - since the Vali2 and a bunch of other hybrids use solid state output stages (running either Class A or A/B), and the tubes are preamp tubes, all they affect are gain and noise. Also, a Little Dot MkII and Schiit Valhalla2 being OTL amplifiers would have more power at 300ohms than at 32ohms, but even their 300ohm output is a heck of a lot lower than the output from the Vali2. At the same time the Lyr uses two tubes, but they're only preamp tubes and it's the solid state output stage that kicks out 6w/ch at 32ohms.

In short, the number of tubes doesn't determine the quality of the amp - that still depends more on the circuit design and the quality of the tube/s in use. Having more tubes just means more tubes to replace, although in some cases it might be easier to find two matched tubes than a vintage dual channel tube that measures well on both channels.

Thanks for detailed explain:o2smile:
 
Jun 22, 2017 at 7:19 AM Post #8 of 9
Threads like this could go on forever. When you find an amp that you prefer, it should end there. Oddly enough, it can have less to do about price, number of tubes etc, but so much more to do about the synergy of the complete system, and what YOU like. Having said that, don't be too tempted by 'too good to be true' deals. You already know why.
He as a noobie to tubes asked basic questions since he is still learning. Looking from afar, I am disappointed that many tube guys dont share the knowledge and further act as if price no object is not a concern. fore example, in car styereo stuff, my domain, you can start with units at $349 and get good but not great stuff going to $850 and each step of the way you can see what you get for each dollar jump up and for the $800 to $1200 range its diminishing returns and often bragging rights. There is enough info on crutchfield and the vendor sites to evaluate the various units if you take the time to investigate. However with tube amps and such, there is not so much info and much of it is hype so its difficult to investigate. Tube stuff is way more difficult to investigate when a noob buys, seems way more difficult to seperate hype from fact, perhaps because the tube market is so small and a niche product.
 
Jun 22, 2017 at 11:19 AM Post #9 of 9
He as a noobie to tubes asked basic questions since he is still learning. Looking from afar, I am disappointed that many tube guys dont share the knowledge and further act as if price no object is not a concern. fore example, in car styereo stuff, my domain, you can start with units at $349 and get good but not great stuff going to $850 and each step of the way you can see what you get for each dollar jump up and for the $800 to $1200 range its diminishing returns and often bragging rights. There is enough info on crutchfield and the vendor sites to evaluate the various units if you take the time to investigate. However with tube amps and such, there is not so much info and much of it is hype so its difficult to investigate. Tube stuff is way more difficult to investigate when a noob buys, seems way more difficult to seperate hype from fact, perhaps because the tube market is so small and a niche product.

Because to a certain extent that's what tube amps are about. In terms of SNR and THD they do a lot worse than properly designed solid state amps for the same price, and those that measure well in terms of both as well as have low output impedance and a lot of power tend to be really expensive because these are the SEPP designs that have three transformers, a rectifier tube plus a preamp tube and driver tube per channel. You can build a solid state amp that measures as well as that for half the money that weighs less and costs less to ship (from the manufacturer to dealers or to you, and from you to anyone who'd repair them down the line).

And then there's the bling factor - taking long exposure shots of amps with the tube glow for illumination is kind of like the audio forum equivalent of RGB LED for people who make their own PCs, or having underglow in your Japanese econobox and a matched LED in the plexiglass-windowed subwoofer box when you open the trunk in the parking lot (and then you have the stereotypical scantily clad girls dancing around it wearing some performance parts or subwoofer brand manufacturer's logo).

Then there's buying the tubes. Some NOS tubes are expensive, and they have to match - either two separate tubes that match or a dual channel tube like the 12AX7 that measures well on both. Reissue tubes might have lower noise, but sometimes slightly lower gain; sometimes microphonic noise is noticeably worse (not much of a problem with headphone systems since the soundwaves aren't pounding the room, unless you listen while typing and the amp is on the same desk as the keyboard); in some cases they might sound cleaner and balanced but in other cases they actually sound like tin cans vs NOS tubes. And then sometimes you get bum NOS tubes. By contrast you can go into any electronics parts dealers and put down an order for a few LM4171.

Personally, if I was to recommend a tube amp over a solid state amp, it would be because:

1) It's easier to roll a tube off the socket than desolder off a busted chip and solder on a new one for diagnosis and repair
2) It's easier to find into on what effects tube rolling does vs op-amp rolling, although in my case my concern is often "less noise without sacrificing gain" and a lot less "syrupy oozy warm sound that makes Norah Jones sound like she has sinusitis" (ie like how my LD MkII had a tendency to make my headphones sound worse as earpad wear developed than any of my other amps)
3) You just want to pour a lot of voltage into a high impedance headphone for a lot less than a Violectric SS amp, ie, a good but relatively inexpensive OTL like the Darkvoice DV336se
 
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