Silver wire would like your opinion
Jun 18, 2007 at 3:15 PM Thread Starter Post #1 of 126

fc911c

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Hi guys

I am new to the forum.

I just ordered a small amount of Homegrown Audio 99.99 silver Ic3 braid and
24 ga single strand to make some mini to mini cables. I seems like good stuff, who would ever thought that wire could be so exspensive LOL.

What do think of this wire and what other sources are out there.

How does the use of differant wire change the quality of the sound that passes threw it?


Thanks for the help
Frank
 
Jun 18, 2007 at 6:02 PM Post #2 of 126
Trying to improve sound quality by buying expensive cables is like trying to make a horse run faster by trimming his tail to reduce wind resistance.

There are things you can do with your money and energy that will make a much more significant difference in the quality of your sound.

See ya
Steve
 
Jun 18, 2007 at 6:15 PM Post #3 of 126
Quote:

Originally Posted by bigshot /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Trying to improve sound quality by buying expensive cables is like trying to make a horse run faster by trimming his tail to reduce wind resistance.

There are things you can do with your money and energy that will make a much more significant difference in the quality of your sound.

See ya
Steve



for instance?

I didnt spend much as I said only a small peice. I want to compare the cable I make to the standard one to hear for myself if in fact you are right.

Why is it that so many people say when they change there headphone cables it maks e differance?

Frank
 
Jun 18, 2007 at 7:19 PM Post #4 of 126
Perhaps placebo effect? If you want to change what your headphones sound like, you might as well just mess with the EQ. The difference is indisputably real, the change costs you nothing and is completely reversible.
 
Jun 19, 2007 at 6:10 AM Post #6 of 126
I don't agree with the nay-sayers in this thread. Although, I will agree that interconnects is not the ideal place to start when attempting to improve sound quality. Often times, improvement could have been seen simply by shortening the interconnect cable. Your bottleneck is going to be the jacks. It's no use having a well made plug if your source has a junky jack. And if it's wired internally with poor quality wire, expensive cables aren't going to fix your woes.

In my experience, changing internal wiring can make a world of difference in sound quality and output. For instance, in '95 I purchased a $30 set of powered desktop speakers. They were two-way's with 4.5" woofers and poly-domed tweeters. Typical crud design where the amplifier and controls are housed inside one enclosure and the powered signal actually exits the main woofer and enters the second with an interconnect. They seriously lacked bass and the highs were not clear and crisp, they really didn't sound very good.

Upon opening them up, the input and output jacks were wired to the PCB with extremely small, the likes of 22-24 gauge, wire which from best I could tell, was not even copper. The woofers and tweeters were wired with this same wire in both cabinets. Plus the RCA cable which ran the powered output to the secondary enclosure was made with extremely thin wire.

I rewired all the jacks and speakers as well as made a new RCA cable with 16 gauge copper speaker wire from radio shack and the difference was amazing. This was not something you had to try and hear, it was obvious. The bass was big and full and the highs were clear and crisp. Everything sounded very clean.

I still have these in my closet in fact. I actually had since then removed the guts from the main enclosure making the amplifier external and filled all the holes making them normal enclosures, but I've neglected to build a stand or enclosure for the amplifier and it's controls. They are nothing fancy, but I liked the way they sounded so I think I'll just rebuild the entire amplifier with better components and set these babies back up. Hey, thanks for reminding me of this old project, I have the money to do this atm so I'm gonna do it. Hahaha!
smily_headphones1.gif


Oh yeah, changing wire makes a difference 'n stuff. The end!
 
Jun 19, 2007 at 12:54 PM Post #7 of 126
Quote:

Originally Posted by Logistics /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I don't agree with the nay-sayers in this thread. Although, I will agree that interconnects is not the ideal place to start when attempting to improve sound quality. Often times, improvement could have been seen simply by shortening the interconnect cable. Your bottleneck is going to be the jacks. It's no use having a well made plug if your source has a junky jack. And if it's wired internally with poor quality wire, expensive cables aren't going to fix your woes.

In my experience, changing internal wiring can make a world of difference in sound quality and output. For instance, in '95 I purchased a $30 set of powered desktop speakers. They were two-way's with 4.5" woofers and poly-domed tweeters. Typical crud design where the amplifier and controls are housed inside one enclosure and the powered signal actually exits the main woofer and enters the second with an interconnect. They seriously lacked bass and the highs were not clear and crisp, they really didn't sound very good.

Upon opening them up, the input and output jacks were wired to the PCB with extremely small, the likes of 22-24 gauge, wire which from best I could tell, was not even copper. The woofers and tweeters were wired with this same wire in both cabinets. Plus the RCA cable which ran the powered output to the secondary enclosure was made with extremely thin wire.

I rewired all the jacks and speakers as well as made a new RCA cable with 16 gauge copper speaker wire from radio shack and the difference was amazing. This was not something you had to try and hear, it was obvious. The bass was big and full and the highs were clear and crisp. Everything sounded very clean.

I still have these in my closet in fact. I actually had since then removed the guts from the main enclosure making the amplifier external and filled all the holes making them normal enclosures, but I've neglected to build a stand or enclosure for the amplifier and it's controls. They are nothing fancy, but I liked the way they sounded so I think I'll just rebuild the entire amplifier with better components and set these babies back up. Hey, thanks for reminding me of this old project, I have the money to do this atm so I'm gonna do it. Hahaha!
smily_headphones1.gif


Oh yeah, changing wire makes a difference 'n stuff. The end!



interesting story thanks for the post
 
Jun 19, 2007 at 1:37 PM Post #8 of 126
Think of the different wires like tweaking spices in a meal. Have you ever tried different types of cinnamon or vanilla? While all are basically the same some compliment the meal better than others do. Some work better in some dishes than others and usually none are universal. You wouldn’t tweak the spices first but at the end when you’re trying to refine the dish.

These final elements of tweaking an audio system are the last 5-10% of performance. If you like McDonalds you might not like a Kobe Beef hamburger but that doesn’t diminish the quality of Kobe Beef it’s just your personal preference.


Mitch
 
Jun 19, 2007 at 2:21 PM Post #9 of 126
From another thread, the mother of all "cables and common sense"- posts:



Quote:

Originally Posted by chroot /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Hey guys,

I'm relatively new here, and do not have as much experience with hi-fi gear as many of you. However, I do have something most of you probably do not: a Master's of Electrical Engineering from Stanford. I work as an integrated circuit designer (yes, including amplifiers) for one of the largest high-performance analog companies in the world.

I would like to make a few points, some from an electrical engineering perspective, and some simply observations of human behavior.

1) The "difficulty" misconception.

Most audiophiles want to believe that designing and building hi-fi sound equipment is difficult. They are used to seeing very elaborate equipment full of exotic materials and components. Their experience (and the messages targeted to them by the manufacturers of such equipment) leads them to have a very skewed understanding of what's "difficult" in the field of electrical engineering.

To make it clear: shuffling bits across a noisy bus at 10 Gbit/s is a difficult problem. Building a 98% efficient 200 kW microwave amplifier is a difficult problem.

Sending a 2 V peak-to-peak, 20 kHz band-limited signal across a 12-inch piece of shielded wire is not a difficult problem. At all. It's a cookie-cutter problem, solved handily by the basic circuit topologies shown in dozens of electrical-engineering textbooks. You can build an audio line-driver with essentially any THD you want, for example, without having to use your brain at all.

It's hard to build excellent speakers. It's hard to build excellent headphones. It's hard to build excellent codecs. It's easy as pie to build excellent line-drivers that will work well over anything from cryogenically-treated super-engineered science-project cable to RadioShack's cheapest speaker wire.

2) The capacitance misconception.

Many of the people who try to have empirical discussions about cables will bring up figures like capacitance. They mean well, but they are misguided. They are almost universally using a linear no-threshold model without realizing it. A linear no-threshold model is embodied in the concepts "less capacitance always produces equivalently better sound" and "you can never have too little capacitance."

Linear no-threshold modelling has unfortunately become downright mainstream in modern society. Everything from exposure to carcinogens and radiation to climate change is now almost exclusively discussed in the context of a linear no-threshold model by the popular media.

The problem is that a linear no-threshold model is essentially never physically valid. In the context of audiophile gear, many people misunderstand that capacitance is necessary for your amplifier to operate properly. Almost all op-amps, for example, require some load capacitance to remain stable. If you lower the capacitance, the amplifier will begin to distort or, worse, spontaneously oscillate. Op-amps are designed for efficiency over a relatively broad range of acceptable load capacitances, and thus capacitance does not obey a linear no-threshold model. Furthermore, the engineers who built your sound equipment stuck some capacitors on the board specifically to make sure the amplifier always sees enough load capacitance.

Besides -- look at the specifications on your cables. Almost all of them, even the super high-grade cables, will have capacitances in the ballpark of 10-20 pF per foot. The lesson is that you should be more concerned about the length of your cables than the type of your cables, if you worry about capacitance at all. (And you probably shouldn't.)

Besides, if you really want zero-capacitance cables, you can do it with basic matching networks at both ends. All you need is a couple of small, cheap inductors and viola your cable presents a purely real impedance to your amplifier.

And don't forget those chintzy 3.5mm mini-phono plugs! They're terrible from an electrical engineering perspective. They have large capacitance, large contact resistance, etc. If you're really concerned about interconnect, why not use modern connectors like SMA or SMB that have vastly superior electrical characteristics? That'll certainly have a much larger effect on the overall transmission line than simply connecting two mini-phono plugs with a wire as big as a baby's arm.

3) The resistivity misconception.

The second figure everyone brings up is resistivity. Since you're not driving power over your interconnect, resistance should be the least of your concern. If you look at the telegrapher's equations, you'll see that real resistance only contributes to attenuation. In other words, you'll lose some signal amplitude over a length of cable if its resitance is high. Real resistance does not alter the transmitted waveform in any other way; it does not affect waveform shape or spectral content.

Oxygen-free copper and so on provide improvements in resistivity of at most about 2%. This means, well, essentially nothing. It means you'll have to turn the knob on your receiver a couple more microns clockwise if you use normal cables.

4) The size misconception

Many people intuitively believe that larger conductors are better. Some people buy luidcrously large conductors -- large enough to use as mains power cabling for a hospital -- in the hopes that it will improve sound quality.

It's already been discussed here many times, so I won't belabor the point, but there's no point in using an enormous cable to connect integrated circuits. Forget about the pins on the iPod dock. Forget about the 10 micron board traces. Realize that inside the black plastic package of your integrated circuits, the signals are being carried on tiny gold wires thinner than a human hair.

And, I just have to pick on TheMarchingMule a bit:



Anytime someone tries to personify electrons, or make weird analogies between fluid flow or feng shui and electron conduction, be wary: that person doesn't know anything about how signals actually propagate through wires.

5) The measurement misconception.

Anyone who tells you they can hear things that cannot be conclusively shown on a decent-quality oscilloscope is lying to you (and probably to themselves, as well). Measurement equipment is hundreds or thousands of times more sensitive than human senses. It's positively silly for someone to claim that they can hear something that a high-end spectrum analzyer cannot detect.

6) The tone-color misconception.

Audiophiles openly admit that they buy amplifiers and headphones because they like the way they color the sound. People love tube amplifiers, for example, specifically because they are such poor amplifiers, from an electrical engineering perspective. They color the sound quite strongly, changing its spectral content enormously. Yet people enjoy the sound, and pay loads of money for them. On the other hand, the same people will spend hundreds of dollars on cables that they believe to be superior because they do not color their sound.

6) The price misconception.

As has been mentioned (and demonstrated), people have a fascination with price, and tend to think that anything expensive must be good.

Anyone who's ever listened to music before can tell you that a $20 pair of headphones don't sound as good as a $100 pair of headphones (unless they're Bose). It's so easy to tell the difference between headphones that the market economy reliably drives their prices to a reasonable delta -- given equal market exposure, the good ones cost more than the bad ones, almost universally. (Marketing screws this up a bit by affecting market exposure, but I digress.)

On the other hand, almost no one can really tell the difference between cables, even experienced audiophiles. Perhaps a few people really can, but the majority of the market cannot. This means the market cannot reliably set prices, which is why you find cables priced at anything from $1 to $3000.

The stock market works the same way, by the way -- it's hard to make a windfall on large, well-known stocks where everyone has the same information, because everyone pretty much agrees on what the prices should be. When you get down to the small, relatively unknown companies, no one really knows which ones are better, and the prices between them can fluctuate wildly with no real rhyme or reason.

8) What to do?

Now for the warm and fuzzy part.

I personally feel the best hi-fi system is the one you enjoy the most. "Enjoyment" is a subjective term, of course. Personally, I enjoy musical variety more than anything else. I love having (and knowing) a large collection of music, because I enjoy always having the right music for every occassion. I like always being able to get people dancing at parties. I like having people come up to me and say "wow, I love this music, what is it?" I like taking road trips with people, and having them tell me later that the best part of the trip was the music.

Other people like the look of their sound systems. They want lights and meters and fancy looking interconnects. Maybe they want to impress people, or maybe lights and meters are just their thing. To them, it's incredibly important that their system look as good as it sounds. So be it.

Other people simply view cables as the "final touches" on their masterpiece sound system. They may admit that it doesn't really affect the sound perceptibly, but they enjoy the system more because it feels "complete" and finished to them. So be it.

Again, the best hi-fi is the one you enjoy and use the most.

- Warren



If you, after reading this, still decide it's worth taking efforts in cable esoterics, you sure deserve getting pulled over the barrel.
 
Jun 19, 2007 at 3:17 PM Post #10 of 126
Quote:

Originally Posted by Vul Kuolun /img/forum/go_quote.gif
From another thread, the mother of all "cables and common sense"- posts:





If you, after reading this, still decide it's worth taking efforts in cable esoterics, you sure deserve getting pulled over the barrel.



Thank you thank you. As an electrical engineer myself, that post is pure gold.
 
Jun 19, 2007 at 4:10 PM Post #12 of 126
Yes, the engineers viewpoint is very well reasoned, and I agree with much of what he says.

I even agree that tube amplifiers distort pleasantly. Yep the wires in there distort the signal in such a way that I hear good things.

Not only that the extra long wire between that tube amp and my headphone help distort that tube sound even more.

As another matter fact that long wire distorts it in such a way that it sounds even better by the time it reaches my ears. Hmm... could this mean I can tell the difference between cables?

Nuts, I'm a physicist by training. Engineers tend to read too many books and not think enough about their own logic.

I'm into the music. And some cables make the music sound better.

And don't talk to me about oscilloscopes. My buddy's barn has over 300 of them. Funny thing is that some of them even show that different cables pass signals differently.

Nobody here should be intimidated by phrases like 'linear no threshold models'. I appreciate the thought but it's essentially meaningless in this discussion, which after all is about music.

Remember that. Not sound, but music. A beautiful noise, if you will. Sigh...
 
Jun 19, 2007 at 4:19 PM Post #13 of 126
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nebby /img/forum/go_quote.gif
ah yes....doing the wire/cable discussion again I see. Should be interesting I guess
tongue.gif



Hey, the more it happens, the quicker people will catch on to the fact that maybe, just maybe, there is some truth to what is being said from the very people who are designing the equipment you listen from.
cool.gif


Would it kill people if I told them that their amp mosfets have internal capacitances basically everywhere within their structures? Take a basic course in semiconductor physics and you'll soon realize that there's more to defining what a system sounds like than the pretty cables people like to use. Double blind nothing. Oscilloscopes don't lie.

The basics of electrodynamics haven't changed in nearly a century and they won't unless somebody miraculously discovers a magnetic monopole. Nobody on the cutting edge of engineering research (electrical) is working on basic circuit design and electromagnetics anymore. It's a done deal. Signal processing and controls is where it's all at today.

I might seem harsh, but it's tiring seeing people tell electrical engineers of all people, that they're wrong because they heard otherwise. That's about as silly as saying santa is real because you swore you saw him.
blink.gif
 
Jun 19, 2007 at 4:33 PM Post #14 of 126
voxr3m, what's your point?

Are you saying that there is no difference in sound between different cables?
 
Jun 19, 2007 at 4:40 PM Post #15 of 126
Quote:

Originally Posted by pageman99 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
voxr3m, what's your point?

Are you saying that there is no difference in sound between different cables?



Not unless you measure one.
 

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