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Shure SE846 Impressions Thread

  1. csglinux
    Probably true, but largely!=100% :wink:

    Like Andrew mentioned, Rob Watts has been doing some really interesting work with very long tap-length (huge number of coefficient) FIR filters in an attempt to get as close as possible to an infinite sinc function (reproducing the original analogue signal perfectly, up to the Nyquist limit). He's been looking at effects that are below what any current equipment can measure - and below what any rational person would assume is audible, and yet (apparently) the increasing taps are still giving an improvement to the perception of the sound stage depth. If anybody here has heard the Chord Dave or M-Scaler, you'll know what an amazing job they already do on sound stage.

    The fallacy of relying too heavily on measurements is that even if we had the best equipment (we don't) and the best metrics (we often have no idea - e.g., current THD measurements don't relate well to actual music), in many aspects (e.g. transient resolution) the jury's still out on where the limits of human perception are to begin with. I'd bet there are some aspects of Peppa Pig on vinyl that would benefit from not having to contend with finite sample rates or reconstruction filters.
     
    Steve Wilcox likes this.
  2. SubMash
    I can assure you that all DAC use equipment and not humans to check results. A human brain is an extremely unreliable tool. Measurements can be done wrong or wrong analysis of them can be used. Simply because human brain stands behind setting up those studies. Truth is - most people don't like good quality reproduction. Because it exposes all those mistakes and deficiencies in recordings and mastering. And this is where it makes complete sense to use some digital filters that you can adjust MUCH easier to your liking than a quest of keep searching for equipment that damages sound as you wish. I'd rather play with digital EQ and effects and find a sweet spot for my brain than spend dozens of years trying to listen to all kind of setups and combinations without the ability to quickly compare one to another. But in order to do that you need to have capable equipment first that is as detailed and close to the true signal as possible.

    It's that talk about "true love" that starts when people suggest not to use a brain to make a judgment.

    For people who didn't study physics at school world is full of wonders and magic in the places where it shouldn't be.

    I can give you an example - one area our brain is competing with top analytical equipment is the sense of smell. Human nose with a brain can reliably detect some molecules with concentrations down to 1 part per quadrillion. We can detect it in a mix of several hundredths of chemicals in one go. We can detect it in real-time and measure relative proportions of all those chemicals together with the precision of 5% one to another. Best instruments on the market not yet reaching our nose and brain resolution ability. But they are closing the distance very fast. At most 10 years before we will be able to completely surpass human abilities and at this point, it would be stupid to rely on people when you need to make an objective judgment. But even now a lot of smell related tasks humans are not as good as equipment.

    With the sound human ear is far far behind analytical equipment. It's just misconception that FR and THD are the only important measurements that reflect what people can hear. Phase is also very important for position feedback and source separation. And FR and THD should be measured with more busy sound than just a single tone. Most other things are placebo and it was proven countless times in double-blind placebo-controlled tests. People who are against scientific methods talk nonsense and yet keep using all the products that only became possible of such method.

    Examples of those are people who talk about vinyl superiority while ignoring a fact that vinyl is done by digital CNC machine, recording and mastering behind it fully digital, artists were monitoring their sound in real time through the digital equipment and all of those things are calibrated by the equipment and measurements. Vinyl is a soothing ritual and nostalgia of old bad quality sound. And nothing wrong with it. Just don't push it as a technical superiority - you can get CD sound and make it exact match to your vinyl system and you won't be able to hear the difference with a proper test. But you almost can't take your vinyl and make it sound as it was recorded because a lot of information from original sound is gone and so you would only be able to use some guessing tools that will try to recover it.

    If you have precise enough sound equipment you can use tools like sonarworks to emulate any hi-end equipment if you have later one characterized.
     
  3. csglinux
    Chord Electronics' FPGA DACs (amongst the best-sounding and best-measuring DACs in the world) use listening tests as an integral part of their design, precisely because the limits of all aspects of human hearing aren't well understood. You may think you have all the answers, but the headfi community as a whole doesn't even have a consensus one way or the other on the merits of hi-res audio. For people who took only a beginners' class in physics and think they now know everything about measurements and the limits of the human neurological and auditory systems, there seems to be a tremendous arrogance. Here's a suggestion - if you're going write antagonistic posts on this (or any other) thread on headfi - at least have a point and try to contribute something; don't just make crap up. Your only offering to this thread so far has been that the 1more triple driver is a superior headphone to the SE846. Everybody on this thread knows that to be false. My parting advice to you would be to try some yoga, meditation, or just get out more. This is the wrong place to be working through your issues.

    Sorry for feeding the troll folks. I promise I won't do this again. SubMash is now on my ignore list and I will just have to learn to live without all those awesome recommendations for <$100 headphones...
     
  4. koiloco
    Amen...:arrow_up:
     
  5. koiloco
    On a more serious note, fiio q5 came in yst, along with balanced cable for the 846. Holy cow...was my impression. Treble extension improved greatly. Bass tightened up. Separation also went up a notch. The 846 scales very nicely with better improvement.
    Don't think I will sell it this time...
    Also, blue tooth quality is surprising good. On hi res and dsd, I can't tell the difference most of the times.
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2018
  6. SteveOliver
    April fools day joke. :)
     
  7. SubMash
    So whole this post just to debate with yourself whether human listening test in addition to instrumental is valuable or not? I never said it's not. But human test without instrumental is just an opinion of one (or multiple) person preference and is not an assessment of any product quality. Let alone none of those opinions done in a controlled environment so they biased by default.

    You can imagine yourself as a delegate from humanity as much as you want, but I have my opinion, you have yours and you just obviously can't bear the fact that somebody speaks up against your beliefs. And you are not alone - I'm speaking in a church, so I'm aware that most here don't like what I say. I'm glad you can't read my posts anymore - your insult attempts are waste of time. I suggest everyone with the same issue to use ignore list for safety purpose.
     
  8. ropie
    You certainly have the tone of voice someone that likes to speak in a church. So sure of yourself. And all the wisdom in your posession
    And you know what; you just made me a true believer!
    All the other forum members just went on my ignore list, and I will just be able to read your posts from now on.

    You are so right about measuring beiing superior to human perception!
    Heck, next time someone serves me food that has all the vitamins, proteins and fibers that are supposed to be healthy. I will just enjoy it, because it measures well, eventhough my human taste buds are trying to fool me by telling the food tastes awful.
     
  9. m4rkw
    Personally I will never trust anything Chord do or say, nor buy anything from them ever, since they launched their “directional” ethernet cable for £LOL. At first glance I fell about laughing but then realised that there are probably people who fell for it.

    Sorry but that’s just unambiguous cynical exploitation of people’s belief systems and should never be tolerated.
     
    Intensecure and SubMash like this.
  10. SubMash
    But science doesn't know yet everything about human perception. What if directional cable speed up electrons and make smoother sound coming from TCP packets buffer? You never know. And Chord is trusted source of information that makes equipment loved by millions of experienced hifi enthusiasts.
     
  11. m4rkw
    Yeah maybe they extended binary to 0, 1 and “really nice sparkly 1”.
     
  12. m4rkw
    Actually now that I think about it, it was a pretty stupid decision to market that cable. They took things out of the realm where you can always argue subjectivity and into one where anyone armed with a £2 amazon basics cable and 5 lines of bash can disprove their lies. Probably ruined their brand forever in the eyes of anyone who knows what a digital signal is.
     
  13. SubMash
    As you know, because normal cables are not directional electrons could get lost and so sometimes instead of 1 you get 0.97 or even 0.92 (cheap aliexpress ones). So directional makes sure that almost all electrons (except sick ones that don't follow instructions, which you don't want in your sound anyway) arrive together and present themselves as affirmative 1 (0.9998 guaranteed, conditions apply) or in some cases they can even mobilize and cure lost electrons from previous times and use them to make it above 1.0. That's genius. I withdraw my case.
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2018
    ZappaMan and m4rkw like this.
  14. ZappaMan
    i have the se846 arriving today from a reliable retailer so i'll be able to report on a/b sound quality test, with those from supposed less reliable retailer, will keep you posted.

    Though, tying in somewhat with the debate above. I listened to them with the mojopoly/playback from sd card last night, and i've never heard such clear and engaging music replay, and thats in an in-ear, i was amazed.
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2018
    Amsterdam likes this.
  15. csglinux
    The Chord Company and Chord Electronics are two separate companies. They are not related.
     
    SteveOliver and tbritton like this.

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