shunyata debunked
Jul 7, 2007 at 9:01 AM Thread Starter Post #1 of 28

music_man

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while i was intrested in power conditioning, today i opened my hydra and a guardian.

these units are simply heavy duty versions of $8 walmart surge strips. surprised? this is not like the grado ra-1, where you may be paying for a lot of r&d.

the shunyata's are based on tried and proven technology available elsewhere for over 40 years now. for $8. the shunyata has slightly better parts than those but the same basic circuit topology. which is of course very simple.

the difference between the hydra and guardian is one sits on the floor and one sits on a shelf. that's all. the hydra may have better outlets. they count every single part when mentioning the sum of their level of "trident" protection. ie, the outlets and circuit breaker are counted.

the outlets are good quality. not as good as pass or hubble hospital grade or above. the units are not wired entierly with copper bars as described. the iec inlet, circuit breaker and all grounding are with wires. behind each outlet there is a single mov and a hf capacitor(noise reduction). the outlets are not isolated from one another as claimed.

the unit is devoid of chokes,inductors and coils. that is probably good for sound. $8 surge strips do not have these items either. the more expensive strips tend to.

if you think i am just blowing steam see this:
http://www.10audio.com/diy_power_conditioner.htm

i apologize if all this is old news
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music_man
 
Jul 7, 2007 at 9:17 AM Post #2 of 28

nuhi

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It is an old news.

Btw when people hear differences in power cords imagine what wrong part in the filter can do, and all those parts do look alike but who cares, important thing is their exact capacitance or whatever they found in R&D as you put it.

With the original you get like a warranty that it will be what all those other audiophiles recommended and with the DIY you are at hit and miss and it will never sound the same as the original, it can be better or worse.
This can be said for all the amplifiers and speakers as well, it's not the parts that you're paying (unless they are custom made then to some extent), it's the assembly and the guarantee of constant quality.
 
Jul 7, 2007 at 9:33 AM Post #3 of 28

music_man

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maybe it is just me but i feel we are paying too much because they may have figured out what value pf capacitance to be used. you might find that certain $8 strips become very impressive when compared to the shunyata.

in fact my whole arguement was that shunyata are not the ones that figured this out! this "technology" was in the works long before them. you will also find that the exact pf value of the hf caps is not such a huge deal here. this is not like rolling op-amps or tubes. this is very basic electronic theory that can be easily calculated and duplicated. it is not a hit or miss science.

in fact, the pesron at that link did not even use the same part yet obtained very similar results. such can be done all throughout the aisles at walmart. there are several computer applications that will let you see what your filter does to a waveform. besides, even with shunyata the results are not always repeatable. the ac waveform changes all over the place. this is just a very simple one part filter. i am sorry if anyone paid for a shunyata and wants to defend what they spent. i paid for one too. i am now taken aback so to speak.

music_man
 
Jul 7, 2007 at 10:14 AM Post #4 of 28

nuhi

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Well I don't agree that their special formula isn't so valuable.
Who cares who invented filters, they modified it for the high-end audio and judging by their success it's well priced.

Look at the all those cables and their prices, and they are just wire. These Hydra filters cost more in material then the majority of cables, don't they, and some cables are more expensive. Why don't you link to the network cable in comparison to 2k$ cable and say that they sound similar.

I think that this DIY Hydra is a shock because people expected a pc board inside that relatively big chassis, and when they found just an efficient power distribution they think it's the same as a plain power strip, just like after market power cable is same as the normal computer power cable...NOT!
 
Jul 7, 2007 at 10:49 AM Post #5 of 28

music_man

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with quality cables there is a lot of design time involved. there is a lot of construction time involved. the connectors and the copper strands can be fairly expensive. if they sound better is up to the individual. the fact is they can be expensive to manufacture. in that respect one gets their monies worth.

with the hydra and guardian they took a $1.00 capacitor and stuck it on the back of a $10 outlet. it is not even the best quality cap. i doubt they "invented" what value cap belongs there. i do not see any rocket science at work here. the point is you can get products that will sound similar,worse or better starting at $8. they do not have a monopoly on their design nor did they invent it. it is very basic electronic principle.

as usual the people that agree and disagree on these subjects all the time will stick together in their two respective groups.

music_man
 
Jul 7, 2007 at 11:37 AM Post #6 of 28

nuhi

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All that can be said for cables. Don't give me connector price, that's not what they pay when making them or buying couple of thousands of pieces.
Also twisted pair or coaxial cables are nothing new. If they stuck a battery on it that doesn't mean they needed 10 000 man hours to plan that. Maybe marketing guys did...

With Hydra they managed to tame the sound just a tiny bit to what is considered as musical and they protected the equipment with minimal dynamic loss. Why do you think it's just a one-day job to design this unit is beyond me. Like they didn't try many other combinations to see what sounds the best.

And this approximate DIY copy is just like any other DIY project, no reason to hit the nerve except that his text might have fired you up.
Ever saw those Audio Note amplifiers? They are so simple and easy to make for a good DIY-er, they are even sold as a DIY kits at a much lower price.
Still their retails amps are expensive as cars.

In essence what I'm trying to say is either make your own, compare to Hydra then talk about it, but don't panic just because some guy claims that he managed to do it. Try twisting some cables, I'm 100% certain that some of the cables you make would sound good as $2k cable.

I'm not saying that the original Hydra is a bargain, far from it, but for the difference in sound it offers compared to a cable change similarly priced it's well priced. That's all.
 
Jul 7, 2007 at 11:53 AM Post #7 of 28

Solude

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The Hydra is nice... but not at its asking price.

It's essentially a feature limited, point to point wired, MonsterPower Stage 1 in an arguably nice case (I think they look bad personally). Since you can buy those for ~$25 and still have your prized warranty... the Hydra is gouging. Move to stage 2 and you get a different cap value for high current and inductors for digital gear. Ooh Aah how complicated
wink.gif


Let low frequencies pass, you know the juice and divert high frequency, the noise. Hydra doesn't try to divert return noise, just incoming. Have to open it up again but I think the only difference is Monster uses 1 filter per bank where Hydra use 1 per outlet.
 
Jul 7, 2007 at 12:41 PM Post #8 of 28

Joey_V

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A perfect example of gouging the consumer.

A $30 item sold for $Thousands...

And dont give me that bs about not counting how much an individual component costs with regards to the entire item, I dont care what kind of research Shunyata is pulling out of their RD, I dont know how they can charge that much more just for that poor excuse for a conditioner.
 
Jul 7, 2007 at 1:38 PM Post #10 of 28

music_man

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as i figured, we were going to fall into the two usual divided camps on this.

i think everyone missed my most important point though. i highly doubt shunyata did any super special research to arrive at the "magic" value of their one hf capacitor. this technology preceded shunyata by many years.

similar products are sold nearly everywhere for $8 and up. the shunyata does have a iec inlet where these others do not. however, that many outlets on a 20 amp iec is no tvss imo. in fact if hit hard i wouldn't want to be around to witness it.

it has been argued that grado took many hours to come to the component list of the ra-1. that is why i mentioned this is not the same thing. shunyata based their design on many that have preceded it. they simply used even less parts which is actually a good thing. this is so simple it is absurd. there is no huge r&d that went into this. i can almost promise you that. i have software packages that will let me simulate what i can do with capacitance and come to the conclusion i want within one hour. i am sorry to let the cat out of the bag on this one.

it seems to me that this is a distinct case of shunyata saying to themselves, hmm. how can we take a "surge strip put it in a fancy case, call it an audiophile component and sell it for some absurd price".

the shunyata still changes the sound. any hf cap will. monster and others offer a much more sophiscated product for far less money. granted the higher monster's don't sound as good as the shunyata. they have too many parts. yes indeed, they are too much of a value in this case
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music_man
 
Jul 7, 2007 at 2:03 PM Post #11 of 28

nuhi

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music_man,
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Ok, that's true to some extent. But you're missing the obvious point too and that's that Shunyata made one of the best sounding power conditioners / power strips in the world. Who cares how they did it, they did and it works as advertised. Well ok there is DIY then. Now the question is how good are you at the DIY action. Box, parts, assembling it to look professional if you care, safe connections...not as easy as it looks from the parts list.

Do you understand that clearly...for the similar price Monster unit will sound worse!
Now who is actually robbing you, those who deliver the goods or those who pretend they do with excessive parts.
And no, cheaper Monster won't sound better.

As you too said Monster puts too many parts and everyone who compared Shunyata and Monster says it's not even a fight...and yet many audiophiles will buy that Monster and impact their sound in a bad way just because of the parts cost principle.
 
Jul 7, 2007 at 4:52 PM Post #12 of 28

Champ04

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Wow, I'm glad other people out there have the ingenuity to not believe the hype when it comes to Shunyata. My opinion is that their company as a whole is a sham.
NOTE: This is NOT to say that their product doesnt work. It does. I've owned two in the past. But now that I am better educated in the area two things have become glaringly obvious.
1) The Hydra is far more expensive than it needs to be. It could never be classified as a value.
2) While their marketing claims to be the standard in honesty. (see "cable bandits" line of advertising) They are really just a bit more clever in how they go about it.

Here are a few things I learned in researching the company.

Claim 1: "Within the audio-video industry, there is no engineer with a more complete understanding of the scientific tenets critical to signal isolation and current delivery."
Really? And just by what standard? Did everyone take a test to prove this?

Claim 2: "While in college, Caelin Gabriel’s performance in the physical sciences attracted the attention of the US military. Gabriel was recruited and selected for training at a secret Navy cadre."
To say this is exaggerated would be an understatement. First and most importantly is that Caelin dropped out of college due to lack of money. He says this himself and you can find it in an archived interview from 6moons.com. Second, I attended one of the worlds top engineering schools and I can tell you that in the four years I was there the military was not out looking to recruit bright engineering students. They were hanging out in the commons area trying to recruit anyone who would listen. And one of the common tactics they used to get your attention was........ Paying for college.!
There are more examples of these exaggerations throughout their websight and marketing but those two mentioned so far pretty much set the table.

RE: Power cables. Yes, their power cables make a difference. And yes, they are expensive. They are expensive primarily because they are woven by hand and it takes a ton of time to do.
BUT. While they claim Caelin is the brightest man in the industry the fact remains that the idea and patent for the geometry they use belongs to someone else. This is mentioned exactly once, in tiny print, at the very bottom of one of their web pages.

RE: Line conditioners. The OP for this thread has already pointed out the majority of relevance in this area. The only thing that hasnt been mentioned was the use of CDA-101 copper. Shunyata makes a big deal of this in all of their marketing. They do this so that they can downplay the use of pure copper from other companies. The fact is that there really isnt anything remarkable about CDA-101. Its nothing more than a label that you pay for when buying copper. Kinda like THX electronics. CDA-101 is, by standard 99.99% pure. CDA-102, by comparison, is standard 99.95% pure. For CDA-101 you pay a premium not so much for that last 0.04% in purity but because you are paying for people to monitor the process and ensure that it is 99.99% pure. But here is the rub. The process has become efficient enough in the past few decades that the majority of CDA-102 copper that is tested turns out to be at least 99.99% pure.
The reason Shunyata markets its use of CDA101 copper is so that they can compare themselves to other companies using higher grade copper. Their response to other companies using four9s or higher copper is simply to say, "Prove it." "We have documentation." Well, yes, they do. They have documentation that their copper is only 99.99%. The other guys claim higher purity to which Shunyata will lead you to believe is impossible or in the very least unproveable simply because they lack "documentation". Whether other companies are truly more pure is not the issue. I think its fair to say that they are at least as pure. But the constant focus on CDA101 is, in the end, nothing more than a diversion. BTW, cda101 is something you can buy yourself if you look hard enough on the internet.

RE: Fesi1000 compound. Finally we have something that is truly unique to Shunyata. Does it work? thats up to your ears. What I do know is that only the V-ray and Hydra8 come with it. And that the majority of power cables they sell do not. But thats not the point. In the same 6moons.com interview you will find Caelin candidly admitting that he "discovered" the use of Fesi1000 on accident.

So the whole point to my post is not that their stuff doesnt work. It does.
The point is that they make themselves out to be something they are not and that in the end there is nothing truly unique about them.
They have made a name for themselves with some pretty clever marketing. And kudos to them for being succesful in that.
My warning, having been a former owner, is to look a little deeper into the industry. I wont tell you who is better for the same money (or less) but I can promise you they are out there. In the end, if you like Shunyata best then by all means buy it. But dont buy it because they or someone else told you its the best.
 
Jul 7, 2007 at 8:48 PM Post #14 of 28

ooheadsoo

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Quote:

Originally Posted by velogreg /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Besides, any man with Wilson Maxx 2s deserves some credibility.


What?
 

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