[Dobrescu George]

I think this debate runs forever. The only way is to try it to see what suits you.
Over the years I have been convinced of things that turn out to not be true. (Not just in audio!)
Just be aware that the ear and the brain are very easily fooled.
Personally I find it a joy to just plug a pair of high quality headphones into my phone and go.
I have had amps but in the end did not find them worth the bother. And they are a nuisance to carry around.
I have no problem (why would I?!) if people want to listen with amps. I do worry that anyone in a budget may be encouraged to think that they need a load of kit to enjoy their music.
Headphones and source make the most difference IME.
Amps are only going to make a tiny difference at best.
I heard my IE8's with an iPhone 6 recently. Fantastic.
Although of course that could have been my imagination!

I am on a buget, but belive me, e12a was worth every penny, these muses02 op-amps are really something, You should try for yourself. 
I really thoguht that i was not going to hear anything, i thought to myself, why even bother, but i read a lot of good reviews, and told myself, why not just try? After trying i had to buy it.
 
Let put my thoughts in this way, i had in the same place e12a, idsd and hugo, to compare. Idsd was the first to go out of the comparation table, i was not that interested in it's features, it sounded good, but x5+e12a had better soundstage.
 
When i thought that i was doing an un-just comparation between a x5+e12a and hugo, i was wrong.
 
It was able to have a similar tonality, and way of presenting notes. Transparent. With a huge soundstage. Exactly what i was looking for. Hugo was still able to define musical notes better, due to oversampling, and interpolation algorithms, but it costs 4X time price of this kit, alone, and it needs a transport. 
 
What i really want people is not to belive me, but get over preconceptions and test it. it is mind opening.

  I've tried it and didn't gain ANY benefit from it. There wasn't hiss out of my AK100 or from my FiiO X3 as well as no hiss from Nexus 5. E12 didn't have any hiss too. No difference at all. Also my father who is a real audiophile unlike me didn't hear any kind of improvement, especially not any "transparent" and "life-like" improvements. 
 
Everyone can speak what they want and everyone has their opinion. Mine is that it's nonsense and friendly advice from me is not to spend any money on amp, not just because of money but you won't get a thing except carrying extra device for nothing. 

I just want to say that if you tested, and it had not worked for you, it is your own experience, and i respect it. Mine was different, but it could had been because i was testing x5alone vs x5+e12a, vs ifi idsd vs chord hugo. I wanted a cheap, similar sounding solution to hugo, this was it. Hugo is still much better at what it does best, transients.

  I'm conflicted because I feel like everybody's right somewhere ^_^.
many DAPs will indeed hiss into the IE80 and some amps can solve that matter, making the sound much better in my opinion. but I do hate even the slightest hiss.
and for a few sources, 16ohm is too small a load and may give more crosstalk, maybe some more distortions. I doubt this would be audible with most sources, but who knows?
 
now it's also true that the IE80 doesn't need much, and power is NOT the reason why people hear a difference with an amp.
 
I'm all for amps(good proper ones for the IEM/headphone used), and I do think it is one of the best way to improve portable audio. but I also believe that the IE80 is one of the IEMs that was the least influenced by the source, at least out of all the IEMs I've owned(and I've had a few). so again while I'm always rooting for a good amp, I wouldn't tell people to buy one for the IE80 alone.

For ie80 alone i would not tell people to buy one either. 
 
It would be a waste, it is a swiss knife for headphones under 300ohm, not just any iem amp. the name iem amp is given to it because it is able to do one thing corectly. it is able to make anything hissless. that was the biggest improovement possible. 
 
While i know for sure that there are better solutions, this was the only one that i could test myself, and come to a conclusion that it was worth it. If i would had many other amps or iems on the table, maybe i would had had other conclusion.

 

[james444]

 
I just want to say that if you tested, and it had not worked for you, it is your own experience, and i respect it. Mine was different, but it could had been because i was testing x5alone vs x5+e12a, vs ifi idsd vs chord hugo. I wanted a cheap, similar sounding solution to hugo, this was it. Hugo is still much better at what it does best, transients.

 
Care to explain your understanding of "better transients"?

 

[Tail]

Originally Posted by skerry2006aj 
 
For ie80 alone i would not tell people to buy one either. 
 

Well this is IE80 thread and my point was not to buy any amp for IE80...

 

[Koolpep]

I think this debate runs forever. The only way is to try it to see what suits you.
Over the years I have been convinced of things that turn out to not be true. (Not just in audio!)
Just be aware that the ear and the brain are very easily fooled.
Personally I find it a joy to just plug a pair of high quality headphones into my phone and go.
I have had amps but in the end did not find them worth the bother. And they are a nuisance to carry around.
I have no problem (why would I?!) if people want to listen with amps. I do worry that anyone in a budget may be encouraged to think that they need a load of kit to enjoy their music.
Headphones and source make the most difference IME.
Amps are only going to make a tiny difference at best.
I heard my IE8's with an iPhone 6 recently. Fantastic.
Although of course that could have been my imagination!

+1 Headphones are still 80% of the equation.
I am also surprised what the iPhone 6 can do. And since doing lots of blind tests with an input switcher - I am with you. Very often it's not worth the bother.

 

[Kent800]

Registered here to say thanks to someone who recommended Accudio for iOS downloaded ie80(min bass) settings, app then applied auto eq, turned bass dial midway.
Wow!!! Woo ho0!!! This is the sound I was looking for in a portable no need to amp.

 

[Dobrescu George]

   
Care to explain your understanding of "better transients"?

the exact begginning of a musical note and it's ending.
 
they are better defined with hugo, but it is because of the DAC not of the amp.

 

[james444]

  the exact begginning of a musical note and it's ending.
 
they are better defined with hugo, but it is because of the DAC not of the amp.

 
And you hear that difference with your IE8 and are able to identify the DAC as its cause?

 

[Dobrescu George]

   
And you hear that difference with your IE8 and are able to identify the DAC as its cause?

with ie8 the difference was minimal. sorry to bring that info here. I also used ie800 and with it the difference is much more obvious.
 
Needless to say, i consider ie8 and ie800 as ie800 a good update to ie8....
 
but, yes in my tests, with a fiio x5 and a hugo and a e12a, and a ifi idsd, hugo seemed as if the difference in oversampling was able to make music more lifelike [between an x5+e12a and hugo, differences were barely audible, to be totally sincere], but hugo was the only device on the table that had 0% clipping. For example, with metallica - death magnetic album, it has a load of clipping. With ie8, you can hear the clipping, as a static you hear between two radio stations or something. with hugo, there was 0 clipping. a total game changer. 
 
But tonality wise, and everything else, an x5+e12a had a very close to hugo SQ.
 
with x5 alone i had very little hiss both with ie8 and dj one pro. i was very happy, but now, maybe all of the new sounds i hear are because now i have a completley silent background, which is black. i cannot put my finger on it, but i really hear a difference.
 
 
 
About how hugo works, taken data from the internet alavailable data, every note in every song, has a little bump before the entire note, no matter how short the note is. but, in digital recording that data is lost some times, and hugo re-creates that data through a very very complicated oversampling algorithm.

 

[castleofargh]

Spoiler: off topic transient stuff

 

   
Care to explain your understanding of "better transients"?

the exact begginning of a musical note and it's ending.
 
they are better defined with hugo, but it is because of the DAC not of the amp.

I believe we already had troubles with this somewhere else along with DACs sounding different and why(sound science maybe?). 
the idea of speed (beginning/end)can be misleading. a critically damped signal could for some purpose be seen as better transient. but it will not be the fastest to reach close to the desired value. while a slightly underdamped signal will. but then it will be ringing a few times afterward. does it have a better transient response? not really. still that's what we use in audio because we're dealing with waves. it depends on what we're looking for, extreme accuracy, fast return to equilibrium? optimal amplitude.... choices are made every step in the circuit. 
transient response is another of those stuff imported by marketing because it looks like seriouzz bizznezz. you want to hear something that sounds like it started exactly when it should, sharp, fast, precise, and most likely a little more dynamic too? use something with a madly bad fast overshoot at the beginning of the impulse. I doubt it would be audible(I really don't know what delays and amplitude would be needed), but that could go with the feeling you get much more than actual transient response improvement over an already fairly good one like we have in most products(because if the distortions are low, then the transient response can't be that bad).
 
but even then I'm pretty sure that a properly tuned frequency response would convince you of speed and exact whatever, much more than a DAC with a better transient response.
don't let your feelings be explained by marketing. it's just like people thinking they hear jitter. we have a feeling, we read a word in the spec saying jitter is improved, and bingo! humans are wired to do that. you're not to blame, but when you know how we work, you can exert some matter of suspicion upon those brilliant conclusions of yours reached 90% thanks to something the manufacturer said for that very purpose.
also good luck getting a headphone(any headphone) able to follow the crappiest source.
transient response will affect distortions and that at some point might be audible when crazy bad, but most likely not in the way you imagine. it's a tool for engineers, not some audio quality stamp.

 

[Dobrescu George]

 

Spoiler: off topic transient stuff

I believe we already had troubles with this somewhere else along with DACs sounding different and why(sound science maybe?). 
the idea of speed (beginning/end)can be misleading. a critically damped signal could for some purpose be seen as better transient. but it will not be the fastest to reach close to the desired value. while a slightly underdamped signal will. but then it will be ringing a few times afterward. does it have a better transient response? not really. still that's what we use in audio because we're dealing with waves. it depends on what we're looking for, extreme accuracy, fast return to equilibrium? optimal amplitude.... choices are made every step in the circuit. 
transient response is another of those stuff imported by marketing because it looks like seriouzz bizznezz. you want to hear something that sounds like it started exactly when it should, sharp, fast, precise, and most likely a little more dynamic too? use something with a madly bad fast overshoot at the beginning of the impulse. I doubt it would be audible(I really don't know what delays and amplitude would be needed), but that could go with the feeling you get much more than actual transient response improvement over an already fairly good one like we have in most products(because if the distortions are low, then the transient response can't be that bad).
 
but even then I'm pretty sure that a properly tuned frequency response would convince you of speed and exact whatever, much more than a DAC with a better transient response.
don't let your feelings be explained by marketing. it's just like people thinking they hear jitter. we have a feeling, we read a word in the spec saying jitter is improved, and bingo! humans are wired to do that. you're not to blame, but when you know how we work, you can exert some matter of suspicion upon those brilliant conclusions of yours reached 90% thanks to something the manufacturer said for that very purpose.
also good luck getting a headphone(any headphone) able to follow the crappiest source.
transient response will affect distortions and that at some point might be audible when crazy bad, but most likely not in the way you imagine. it's a tool for engineers, not some audio quality stamp.

thanks a lot for the mind opening reply!
 
now, back to the ie80 thread, and sorry for delaying and taking the thread off-rail

 

[ubikutz]

Hi!
 
Using something like the IE80 out of your iPhones, what volume do you usually listen to? (how many volume "ticks" from mute)?
 
I'm asking because there really seems to be no practical way to measuring the real SPL output using IEMs, and I have no idea what is "too loud".
I thought i was listening at pretty soft levels, but than I got ear ringing after a listening session and that got me thinking....

 

[krismusic]

I had the same concerns so I asked the question here.
http://www.head-fi.org/t/762787/measuring-output-of-iems#post_11508108
Being a non technical ignoramus I plan to use the physical suggestion. A loudness app and a bit of blu tack to seal the IEM to the microphone of my phone.
If you are getting ringing in your ears after listening then that is a sign that you are listening too loud. Unless there are other factors causing the symptom.
Do look after your ears. Any damage is irreversible.
I suffer from Tinnitus. A very unpleasant irony given my chosen hobby.
HTH.

 

[Dobrescu George]

ie80 does not have a lot of treble, so getting tinnitus must mean that you are listening a little too loud.

 

[ubikutz]

Yup, I agree, however I am a bit perplexed as to what too loud is.
 
I know for example how floorstanders sound at 80db (i have an iPhone app for that) and can't say I enjoy listening at that volume for more than one song before wanting to turn it down.
I was dead certain that i'm not at that level with my IEMs and than I had the ear rining. So it seems that the good old subjective comparison has somewhat failed me.
 
This is why i was hoping that maybe by comparing to what other people consider "normal" volume I could get an idea of where i stand.
Obviously the comparison only makes sense if using the same IEM + DAC + AMP, this is why I was wondering about the IE80 straight out of iPhone.
 
With my IE80 out of iPhone (6+) I listen normally between 1 to 4 ticks out of 16, which would appear for me to be low, on the other hand these are very sensitive IEMs....
I did a test and i tried to move the volume bar by hand which allows you to move it to about 0.25 ticks out of 16, and that is completely listenable in a quiet environment.
 
So than I wonder what does 4 ticks do to my ears and how to estimate what that is.... :/

 

[ubikutz]

I had the same concerns so I asked the question here.
http://www.head-fi.org/t/762787/measuring-output-of-iems#post_11508108
Being a non technical ignoramus I plan to use the physical suggestion. A loudness app and a bit of blu tack to seal the IEM to the microphone of my phone.
If you are getting ringing in your ears after listening then that is a sign that you are listening too loud. Unless there are other factors causing the symptom.
Do look after your ears. Any damage is irreversible.
I suffer from Tinnitus. A very unpleasant irony given my chosen hobby.
HTH.

I use comply tips on my IE80s; I used the tips to create a seal around the microphone of an iPhone, than started the music on my iPhone and a SPL meter on the other iPhone.
I got something around 50-60db at 4 ticks out of 16. I got 20-30 db at the 0.25 tick out of 16.
Something may be wrong with the way of measuring thou...
Can the iPhone mike be considered a "good enough" instrument of measure of SPL? Or similar to what the ear would measure?
Theoretically at that volume I could listen for days and days with no danger of hearing loss :/