[shabta]

 Looking forward to a more sonically real sound, studio wise. I want to get close to that note, if I could get inside, I would. Cheers.

 
I'll be surprised then if you aren't smitten with your latest acquisition. Look forward to hearing your impressions. 

 

[truelies]

  Continuing on to more impressions...
 
So far I've done classic rock, hip hop, electronica and solo piano. How about violins?
 
One thing I have discovered in france are all the small labels doing audiophile sound and dynamic performances of chamber music. The scholarship is sometimes astounding. Some of it is mixed on the HD800! I don't know how much of it makes it outside of france, I guess everyone has heard some of the alpha recordings. Checkout the stuff with Cafe Zimmermann doing Bach. But I digress. For this test I used a recent release by L'Aura Rilucente Handel & Haym: Trio Sonatas in hi-res. Haym is quite a discovery, a contemporary/collaborator of Handel. His trio sonata in D was a revelation, with quite a thrilling Allegro for the finale. 
 
On both headphones you can clearly make out the two lead violins furiously trading licks back and forth, with cello harp and organ underneath. The sense of air around the instruments is absolutely to die for with the HD800 and the instrument seperation is fantastic. Every sound seems to suspended perfectly in space. This headphone was mad efor music like this. And yet,  every now and then the lead violin is just a wee bit too strident or sharp. I suspect with my no longer young ears, this bothers me less than some. 
 
The HD800 S on the other hand really nails the timbre and the decay of the instruments which sound a hair more natural. It seems to be just enough less strident on the higher registers than its more experienced sibling. This comes at the expense of air. The difference between the two is small, but very definitely there. It isn't like I have to go back and forth ten times and listen really closely to discern a difference.
 
Ok, At this point I decided to switch amps. I leave the Lehmann with its two SE outputs and go over to the more laborious Icon Audio 8 MK ii with its single output. The HD800 shines on this amp, more holographic sound and less strident than the Lehmann. It is why I bought it. Everything is right with the world once again. Until I switch over to the S, and once again I feel like the timbre is slightly more correct. The S doesn't sound as different on the tubes as its bro, but I still like it better on tubes. And while I have again given up a bit of air and definition around the instruments, in addition to the timbre and decay, I think I get a blacker background. It's a tradeoff. If you are happy with your HD800 as is, I would say you need to audition rather than buy an S on the blind.
 
So next I try symphony. I am a bit of a freak about Mahler's ninth, especially the second movement. So for this, I chose Kubelik with Symphonieorchester des beyerischen Rundfunks from 1967.  Going back and forth between phones, this time sticking with the tubular goodness of the Icon, it is all becoming pretty clear now. 
 
Tympani go a wee bit lower and hit a wee bit harder on the S. Experience counts though and in this case older bro has it for instrument separation & definition, especially on the complex crescendos. And again on the S the timbre sounds more natural, and less strident. The warmer sound generally works here-it sounds more natural, but it is still a pretty bright headphone. Just a little less so. And gosh those tympani thump soooooo satisfyingly. 
 
 
I might try some other music but I think the picture is in focus now. I promised someone dear to me that I would sell one or the other. I am a little torn. Probably gonna keep the S. I have put more than 100 hours of listening in. 
 
HD800 more air, sometimes better instrument separation/definition. HD800 S sometimes goes a little lower and slams a bit more, warmer, less prone to piercing highs, even more natural timbre and decay. S better with rock, hip hop and maybe electronica. Classical music, it's harder to say. Both seem to scale with amplification, both like my tube amp best. (I have three amps around here to try). I suspect the S is less amp dependent, but someone with more different amps would be better off answering this. 
 
Lots of people been asking about this compared to the HEK. I think no one can actually tell you which is better, they sound so different. Personally, I don't like the more relaxed sound of the HEK. I did a side by side with the HD800 this summer. I also don't like how heavy it is, my neck gets sore. And finally, I don't have the same confidence in the longevity of the Hifimann yet. And even more finally, $3000 is even crazier money. Too crazy for me with all the other stuff I could buy, given the fact that I find it a side grade at best. If you heard the HEK, liked it and were thinking of getting it, I would recommend auditioning the HD800S. The slightly warmer more natural  sound then the classic while retaining most of the precision, makes me think a few of the people tilting to the HEK might tilt back. 

 
If 800 S is warmer than 800, I think 800 has more true sound for classical.

 

[james444]

 
I found another graph which shows average hearing loss vs age for an extended frequency range. Check out the graph for age = 40.  There is a major dip @ approximately 6KHZ (the dreaded peak). This dip due to hearing loss is at least 4+dB lower than the value @ 8Khz . Hence the required peak by at least 4dB on the HD800.The HD800 curve must then decrease (as it does) to counter the increased hearing amplitude @ 8Khz. Then the HD800 curve increases again to compensate for the rolloff shortly after. It's uncanny how the curves match the HD800 frequency response when the ears increased response for speech frequencies is factored in. To me it is a no brainer that the original HD800 was designed for a slightly older age demographic and the HD800S for a new target younger audience or lucky older people with great hearing.

 
You might want to double check your source, since these notched graphs usually depict noise-induced hearing loss, like this one from a study on iron ore miners (see figure 3). By contrast, pretty much all graphs for 'normal' age related hearing loss show a steady increase with frequency, like the ones here, here, here and here.
 
No offense, but unless you're willing to narrow down your demographic to elderly miners, I remain skeptical of your theory.

 

 

[Dobrescu George]

   
You might want to double check your source, since these notched graphs usually depict noise-induced hearing loss, like this one from a study on iron ore miners (see figure 3). By contrast, pretty much all graphs for 'normal' age related hearing loss show a steady increase with frequency, like the ones here, here, here and here.
 
No offense, but unless you're willing to narrow down your demographic to elderly miners, I remain skeptical of your theory.

 

 
So as long as we have EQ, even at very old age we will still be able to enjoy energic treble, if I read those graphs too. 
 
Actually the one posted for noise induced hearing loss, looked kind of off to me too, because I know people who are over 50 but can hear well the treble.

 

[John Culter]

Just placed new HD800S on sale, if anyone interested
 
http://www.head-fi.org/t/793396/sennheiser-hd800s-new

 

[Jawed]

By contrast, pretty much all graphs for 'normal' age related hearing loss show a steady increase with frequency, like the ones here

You're reading this graph (and the others) incorrectly.

This graph shows the quietest sound at a given frequency that can be perceived by the listener of a given age. So an 80 year old male needs 8Khz to be played about 80dB louder than a 20 year old, in order to hear that sound.

EDIT: Ignore my post. Sorry, you aren't saying what I thought you were saying.

 

[Nicklikesmusic]

   
You might want to double check your source, since these notched graphs usually depict noise-induced hearing loss, like this one from a study on iron ore miners (see figure 3). By contrast, pretty much all graphs for 'normal' age related hearing loss show a steady increase with frequency, like the ones here, here, here and here.
 
No offense, but unless you're willing to narrow down your demographic to elderly miners, I remain skeptical of your theory.

 

Hi James Nice to have someone read my post at least Your graphs pretty much match mine if you factor in the ears natural frequency response. This one shows Hearing Threshold rather than Hearing Loss as in my graph. Hearing Threshold is the minimum loudness in dB to hear a sound and it factors in the ears normal response. Notice as you get older the higher frequencies need to be a greater volume just to hear them. In the case of the older age groups they don't even test past 8Khz. Granted there are a million studies and a million graphs on the net.
Regardless the older you are the greater the hearing loss and the treble needs to be raised to compensate. 

 

[painted klown]

  Continuing on to more impressions...
 
So far I've done classic rock, hip hop, electronica and solo piano. How about violins?
 
One thing I have discovered in france are all the small labels doing audiophile sound and dynamic performances of chamber music. The scholarship is sometimes astounding. Some of it is mixed on the HD800! I don't know how much of it makes it outside of france, I guess everyone has heard some of the alpha recordings. Checkout the stuff with Cafe Zimmermann doing Bach. But I digress. For this test I used a recent release by L'Aura Rilucente Handel & Haym: Trio Sonatas in hi-res. Haym is quite a discovery, a contemporary/collaborator of Handel. His trio sonata in D was a revelation, with quite a thrilling Allegro for the finale. 
 
On both headphones you can clearly make out the two lead violins furiously trading licks back and forth, with cello harp and organ underneath. The sense of air around the instruments is absolutely to die for with the HD800 and the instrument seperation is fantastic. Every sound seems to suspended perfectly in space. This headphone was mad efor music like this. And yet,  every now and then the lead violin is just a wee bit too strident or sharp. I suspect with my no longer young ears, this bothers me less than some. 
 
The HD800 S on the other hand really nails the timbre and the decay of the instruments which sound a hair more natural. It seems to be just enough less strident on the higher registers than its more experienced sibling. This comes at the expense of air. The difference between the two is small, but very definitely there. It isn't like I have to go back and forth ten times and listen really closely to discern a difference.
 
Ok, At this point I decided to switch amps. I leave the Lehmann with its two SE outputs and go over to the more laborious Icon Audio 8 MK ii with its single output. The HD800 shines on this amp, more holographic sound and less strident than the Lehmann. It is why I bought it. Everything is right with the world once again. Until I switch over to the S, and once again I feel like the timbre is slightly more correct. The S doesn't sound as different on the tubes as its bro, but I still like it better on tubes. And while I have again given up a bit of air and definition around the instruments, in addition to the timbre and decay, I think I get a blacker background. It's a tradeoff. If you are happy with your HD800 as is, I would say you need to audition rather than buy an S on the blind.
 
So next I try symphony. I am a bit of a freak about Mahler's ninth, especially the second movement. So for this, I chose Kubelik with Symphonieorchester des beyerischen Rundfunks from 1967.  Going back and forth between phones, this time sticking with the tubular goodness of the Icon, it is all becoming pretty clear now. 
 
Tympani go a wee bit lower and hit a wee bit harder on the S. Experience counts though and in this case older bro has it for instrument separation & definition, especially on the complex crescendos. And again on the S the timbre sounds more natural, and less strident. The warmer sound generally works here-it sounds more natural, but it is still a pretty bright headphone. Just a little less so. And gosh those tympani thump soooooo satisfyingly. 
 
 
I might try some other music but I think the picture is in focus now. I promised someone dear to me that I would sell one or the other. I am a little torn. Probably gonna keep the S. I have put more than 100 hours of listening in. 
 
HD800 more air, sometimes better instrument separation/definition. HD800 S sometimes goes a little lower and slams a bit more, warmer, less prone to piercing highs, even more natural timbre and decay. S better with rock, hip hop and maybe electronica. Classical music, it's harder to say. Both seem to scale with amplification, both like my tube amp best. (I have three amps around here to try). I suspect the S is less amp dependent, but someone with more different amps would be better off answering this. 
 
Lots of people been asking about this compared to the HEK. I think no one can actually tell you which is better, they sound so different. Personally, I don't like the more relaxed sound of the HEK. I did a side by side with the HD800 this summer. I also don't like how heavy it is, my neck gets sore. And finally, I don't have the same confidence in the longevity of the Hifimann yet. And even more finally, $3000 is even crazier money. Too crazy for me with all the other stuff I could buy, given the fact that I find it a side grade at best. If you heard the HEK, liked it and were thinking of getting it, I would recommend auditioning the HD800S. The slightly warmer more natural  sound then the classic while retaining most of the precision, makes me think a few of the people tilting to the HEK might tilt back. 

shabta,
 
My hat is off to you, good sir! Excellent review. Like some other reviews I have read, it really makes me want to listen to the music you used to evaluate these 'phones. 
 
Additionally, I recently started listening to some classical music myself, and think it would be cool to hear those sweet violins you love. Would you mind posting the CDs you used in this section of your review?

 

[jelt2359]

My modded HD800 (foam+ rug liner) clearly has a higher peak in the 6k region than my HD800S. But probably because of the damping, the former also sounds smoother in the treble, so pick your poison.

I saw a few charts around here, and my HD800S actually has a higher 6k region (on mine it's level with the 8k region). As a fan of the modded HD800 as well, this sounds pretty good to me. Not warm and never piercing, but still retaining the excitement of the original.

 

[Nicklikesmusic]

   
You might want to double check your source, since these notched graphs usually depict noise-induced hearing loss, like this one from a study on iron ore miners (see figure 3). By contrast, pretty much all graphs for 'normal' age related hearing loss show a steady increase with frequency, like the ones here, here, here and here.
 
No offense, but unless you're willing to narrow down your demographic to elderly miners, I remain skeptical of your theory.

 

http://www.psych.usyd.edu.au/staff/alexh/teaching/auditoryTute_2014/
 
Hi James
 
Heres the source, not using this as a means to justify my answer. Just to continue the conversation. Apparently its for natural age related hearing loss and is an interesting read. I'm always keen to learn new things and my wife isn't really interested in my ramblings 

 

[Youth]

Just placed new HD800S on sale, if anyone interested

http://www.head-fi.org/t/793396/sennheiser-hd800s-new

That was fast. How come?

 

[xp9433]

   
You might want to double check your source, since these notched graphs usually depict noise-induced hearing loss, like this one from a study on iron ore miners (see figure 3). By contrast, pretty much all graphs for 'normal' age related hearing loss show a steady increase with frequency, like the ones here, here, here and here.
 
No offense, but unless you're willing to narrow down your demographic to elderly miners, I remain skeptical of your theory.

 

James444 & Nicklikesmusic
 
I wonder about the relevance of many of these tests in relation to the normal music listening experience at appropriate SPL levels. That is, in contrast to minimum SPL recognition. Being in my 70's and having tinnitus, testing lower SPL recognition is irrelevant to what I hear listening at real/comfortable/concert-hall levels.
 
As you can try for yourself, I have done my own headphone listening tests at my normal (loudish) listening levels, using Warble Tones and Sine Waves, comparing each frequency's perceived loudness levels to a base frequency (either 200Hz or 500Hz). At these SPL levels, there was no perceived fall off in loudness levels at all up to about 8kHz (after which it dropped like a stone). This confirms what I was hearing clearly when attending live acoustic events/orchestras. However, if I did that test at lowest SPL levels, I would be told I badly need a hearing aid, because my hearing 1kHz > 8kHz was severely compromised (particularly with test tones disappearing into my built-in background noise levels).
 
This erroneous conclusion about my hearing at normal to loud levels is why I will never adjust/compromise my brains acceptance of what is natural and realistic by using a hearing aid. It also cuts across the believe that older people cannot hear or be highly sensitive to high frequency aberrations or distortions, whether it be from a HD800 or other headphone.
 
Cheers
Frank

 

[MacedonianHero]

   
If 800 S is warmer than 800, I think 800 has more true sound for classical.

 
The HD800S is not warmer per se...just that the HD800 can be excessively bright (and brighter than neutral or what is natural). The HD800S simply "corrects" this and for me, this was a huge step in improving my enjoyment of these great headphones!

 

[XERO1]

   
The HD800S is not warmer per se...just that the HD800 can be excessively bright (and brighter than neutral or what is natural). The HD800S simply "corrects" this and for me, this was a huge step in improving my enjoyment of these great headphones!

 
Well said.

 

[jelt2359]

HD800s warmer than HD800, HD800 brighter than HD800s, whichever phrase you pick, I think both are true. My HD800 sounds more open and is a bit easier to hear the detail than on my HD800S, but listen closely and you'll hear that it's all there. In this sense my impressions mesh very well with shabta here in that if you're a HD800 lover, you really need to audition both before you choose. I see that there was a recent audiophile meet in San Francisco where they tested a new HD800 mod that seems promising. All in all I wouldn't count out the HD800 just yet.