Sennheiser HD660S... Finally a successor for the HD650?
May 15, 2018 at 5:05 PM Post #3,361 of 7,903

Rob80b

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I beg to differ Rob80b. The treble problems is less to do with analogue vs digital and more to do with the loudness wars.

........

That is definitely a major apart of the equation not to forget overly compressed albums that actually reared their ugly head back in the seventies...boost the treble on those and one has a very nasty formula . : (
 
May 15, 2018 at 10:03 PM Post #3,362 of 7,903

SilverEars

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Could explain why my two years with the HD700s were never problematic… : )

Now don’t go thinking the Bryston rolled off the highs….they definitely didn’t...paired with an equally revealing source …in my case a Bryston BCD-1…every peak was clearly evident but still part of the music and not some irritating spike in the ear.

All this enhanced the moments of realism I had experienced with the 700s….the 660S being an obvious offspring of the 600 series not so much.
I have no doubt that Bryston BHA-1 can bring out realistic tonality with the right headphone. This is the reason why I decided to keep the Bryston as my reference amp.

I had the much hyped GSX MK2, and to my ears, it didn't have the same realistic tonal characteristic as the BHA-1 at 1/3 more of the price. People keep hyping up that it's highly transparent, but it didn't sound that transparent. The way it sounds, there' s limit to how much it can reveal I realized. It's quite overpriced for it's sonic performance although it looks flashy with the finish(well designed aesthetically), and the separate power supply tricks you into thinking that it's doing something particularly special with it. In addition, even with balanced, it wasn't as powerful as the BHA-1. BHA-1 seems to have so much power(despite the spec, maybe under rated, I've not gone past 10 O clock yet). Couple headphones I'd like to try driving on it are the HE-6 and the Susvara, and see how much it can power those highly difficult to drive cans in balanced connection.

BHA-1 can still sound bright with certain headphones, it just happens to not sound 5-6k raised with the HD660S for some reason(you really cannot generalize this amp I realized). I just thought it was interesting how HD660S reacts to the BHA-1.
 
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May 15, 2018 at 11:21 PM Post #3,363 of 7,903

vaibhavp

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Burson is dark and slow sounding, it can mask hd700 treble peak to some extent, but at the same time not the most revealing brand. All is compromises and gear matching, there's no miracles, I'm afraid.
And let's not forget the tubes. Yes, they warm things up, but the sound becomes too fuzzy and distorted for me.


660s cannot surpass the hd800s no matter the source, but hd650 can. If powered by the Death Star, the hd650 can surpass the live performances too.

I have not heard better. Can you suggest what would be an upgrade in $500 range while being more revealing but no treble issues.

I have mk2 which is more transparent and neutral than mk1.
 
May 15, 2018 at 11:49 PM Post #3,364 of 7,903

Sigmaaa

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There's no more revealing without treble issues, because the treble issues are part of the headphone and altering that implies altering other sound characteristics. An amp won't have -10dB at 6kHz and 0dB at 5 and 8kHz, for that peak to be reduced, you'll have to reduce neighbouring areas too, despite the fact that they are already depressed in response.
The only upgrade to be more revealing and without the peak is another headphone, and that would be the hd660s. Unless you like the soundstage and then you either endure the peak or tamper with the whole sound by using a tube amp or an overly warm amp. I don't say it can't bring pleasure, but it doesn't mean it's superior and accurate.
I can make an analogy to some Grado headphones, with massive resonances and extremely jagged response. Some take them as very detailed, but it's fake. It's the same case with tube amps or ss amps that tamper too much with neutrality. Maybe they're the best solution for a deeply flawed headphone, but the correct solution is a better headphone.
 
May 16, 2018 at 2:38 AM Post #3,365 of 7,903

vaibhavp

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There's no more revealing without treble issues, because the treble issues are part of the headphone and altering that implies altering other sound characteristics. An amp won't have -10dB at 6kHz and 0dB at 5 and 8kHz, for that peak to be reduced, you'll have to reduce neighbouring areas too, despite the fact that they are already depressed in response.
The only upgrade to be more revealing and without the peak is another headphone, and that would be the hd660s. Unless you like the soundstage and then you either endure the peak or tamper with the whole sound by using a tube amp or an overly warm amp. I don't say it can't bring pleasure, but it doesn't mean it's superior and accurate.
I can make an analogy to some Grado headphones, with massive resonances and extremely jagged response. Some take them as very detailed, but it's fake. It's the same case with tube amps or ss amps that tamper too much with neutrality. Maybe they're the best solution for a deeply flawed headphone, but the correct solution is a better headphone.

As a music listening device, I find hd700 to be terrific. Agreed you have to mix and match dac amps more than average, but when you get it right, its awesome.

I think sennheiser also tries to create music listening devices first and foremost. Thats why orpheus has tubes. Otherwise they would be going for measurements and what not while creating it. Tubes would be out in that case.
 
May 16, 2018 at 4:08 AM Post #3,366 of 7,903

Sigmaaa

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It has tubes because audiophiles would have had a seizure if it hadn't had. It doesn't mean it's more detailed, accurate or even pleasurable for some. And the Orpheus amp maybe is a lot close to ss amps, who knows? Maybe it wouldn't be fit for a hd700. Some tube amps are very close to ss amps, with flat response and little distortion. The proper way for me is to use an accurate ss with a balanced headphone.

But to tame that nasty peak you have to tamper with neutrality, decrease areas surrounding the peak to -7 or more dB, to compress dynamics, don't know, but as I said, you cannot equalize a sharp 10dB peak with an amp without consequences.

PS: Sennheiser, as any other compamy, first of all, tries to make money, nothing more, nothing less.
 
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May 16, 2018 at 5:09 AM Post #3,367 of 7,903

xxAMAROKxx

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My little notice to HD660s sound character.
There is something in treble region, cuases nice presence of voices and instruments. BUT it also causes that all instruments and voices in songs seem to be very close and on the same volume level. Everything wants to be heard - Even quiet instruments, which should be in the background, are in front. It is very easy to localize EVERY intrument with HD660s, but after a while, its a little boring, when there is no chalange.
Its a little strange and not as musical.
I found that +-2 dB down on EQ around 10-16kHz is fine for more pleasant listening.
 
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May 16, 2018 at 6:42 AM Post #3,368 of 7,903

Sigmaaa

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So you hear compression in the treble. Are there any measurements related to this? I guess there should be somewhere on the internets...
I only noticed a slight treble boost, but not compression, but I might haven't noticed it.
 
May 16, 2018 at 7:52 AM Post #3,370 of 7,903

SilverEars

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Dont know if compression, but there are certainly some spikes in treble, which cause everything sounds so life and close.
Maybe this measurement shows how treble on HD660s sounds for me ... a little boosted.
8eQddgz.jpg


Here is my suggestion for amplification:
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/amp-for-hd660s.868475/#post-14239211
People should keep in mind of the scale of the graph to the left, that is why the response looks exaggerated. Anyway, I see consistancy in regards to the differences. The HD650 dips in the annoying sibilance treble region. 6-8k. Hows the cymbals on the HD650? :floatsmile: Try hearing hard rock distortions to see if it's fast to distinguish from vocals well and if the distortion peaks enough for right tonality.

Your Yamaha solid-state amp, is it a AV receiver? What model is it?
 
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May 16, 2018 at 8:11 AM Post #3,371 of 7,903

xxAMAROKxx

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People should keep in mind of the scale of the graph to the left, that is why the response looks exaggerated. Anyway, I see consistancy in regards to the differences. The HD650 dips in the annoying sibilance treble region. 6-8k. Hows the cymbals on the HD650? :floatsmile:

Your Yamaha solid-state amp, is it a AV receiver? What model is it?
It's cheap loudspeakers amp Yamaha ax-397. Nothing detailed, with rolIed-off heighs, but I like it with this Senn's (and also K701).
 
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May 16, 2018 at 11:47 AM Post #3,372 of 7,903

Sigmaaa

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Frequency response comparison graphs for hd650 and 660s are a bit inconsistent. Some show the same amount of treble, some more for the hd660s. I can hear 1-2dB more in the lower treble (5-7khz) and 3-4dB in the mid-treble (8-10khz). The right amount hd650 was lacking for a neutral (not necessarily relaxed or soft) presentation.
 
May 16, 2018 at 11:52 AM Post #3,373 of 7,903

SilverEars

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The only graph I've seen that show similar treble peaks is Jude's graph, and on his the treble peaks of HD660S is narrower. Others I've seen are the cut at about 6-7k for the HD650 comparatively to the HD660S. What I see consistantly of the HD600 is the 7k lift in comparison to both.
 
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May 16, 2018 at 12:05 PM Post #3,374 of 7,903

Rob80b

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May 16, 2018 at 12:18 PM Post #3,375 of 7,903

SilverEars

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I've seen Jude's graphs that didn't make sense to me, different from what I was hearing. Just like his HD650 and HD660S graph, and I can't see his Focal graphs represents the headphones well. I've seen his Utopia graph with a 7k peak(and then later I see another graph from him with 6k there instead), but others I've seen was at 6k, and I do hear it at 6k.

One thing I agree is that different rigs results in some variations, but I wouldn't say Jude's graphs are more accurate. He may have the accurate rig, but I'm sure there more to it than the rig.
 
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