[Sigmaaa]

Nothing can make the dip and peak disappear. You can mitigate the problem a little with a very colored tube amp that further destroys the neutrality to mask the peak a little by weakening all the treble section and boosting the mids, but the problem remains.

Also, I wouldn't have bought the hd800 either, pretty flawed headphone too.
The hd650, beside an overly smooth and little dark presentation and a slight midbaass bloat, were much easier to live with and nothing could do anything but mitigate the flaws to a very small extent.

The hd660s doesn't have the dips and peaks, it isn't overly smooth and lifeless, it's not dark but it's not bright either, except for some of the hd650 fans. It cannot be too bright, it's darker than all Beyers, AKGs, ATHs, Grados, Focals and most Sennheisers, so if the hd660s is too bright, it means that 99% of headphones are much brighter than this and everything must be redefined in terms of neutrality.

The goldenear site, which I consider legendary, positions the HD650 at -1 brightness, the HD800 at +5 and HD700 at +2. It's only +2 because the hd700 isn't bright all over but has a huge peak and with some of the music this cannot be easily noticed. Only when strong sounds fall into that peak you get the ear ache.
So, if the hd660s is just a little brighter than hd650 (-1) and fairly darker than the hd700 (+2), guess what, there's 0 right in that spot.

And, when a headphone is perfectly balanced among all the hundreds of unbalanced models on the market and is also very detailed, what can you say bad about it? Oh, a misterious "grain" that only 1 in 10 people can hear or "an edge", which is called dynamic and lively for people that can see the hd650 flaws and understand the solution.

Strange how nobody detected the grain in the hd700 using the same drivers. The hd700 had real flaws so nobody had the need to come up with imaginary ones. They praised it as clean, detailed, but peaky and hollow sounding. Now all of a sudden there's the grain. I'm very skeptic of this, honestly.

Yes, the hd650 can be said to sound very "natural" by smoothing out textures, making sounds pleasant and polite, masking artifacts in recordings, but I wouldn't call that a correct sound. I too reach for them sometimes, despite having the hd660s, especially when I'm tired, looking for a smooth relaxing presentation, but I know this is not a good quality in absolute terms but merely a particular characteristic. The hd660s is good in an absolute way, directly conveying the correct information from the CD, without much manipulation.

 

[Me x3]

(...)

1) Tonally speaking, different recordings are mastered in a different way. So what's fine for recording A, might not be fine for recording B.

2) Different volume leads to different perception of tonal balance. So what's fine at 70dB average, it's not fine at 85dB average.

3) Different listeners don't hear the same, different body shape and different hearing/age.

Peaks and dips, all relative in absolut terms.
Relative to 1) 2) and 3)

More so, you're looking at compensated graphs.
Change the compensation and a peak can sudenly become flat or even a dip.
Frequency response measurements can be very useful for comparative analysis, not so much to support "absolut" claims.

 

[kman1211]

Nothing can make the dip and peak disappear. You can mitigate the problem a little with a very colored tube amp that further destroys the neutrality to mask the peak a little by weakening all the treble section and boosting the mids, but the problem remains.

Also, I wouldn't have bought the hd800 either, pretty flawed headphone too.
The hd650, beside an overly smooth and little dark presentation and a slight midbaass bloat, were much easier to live with and nothing could do anything but mitigate the flaws to a very small extent.

The hd660s doesn't have the dips and peaks, it isn't overly smooth and lifeless, it's not dark but it's not bright either, except for some of the hd650 fans. It cannot be too bright, it's darker than all Beyers, AKGs, ATHs, Grados, Focals and most Sennheisers, so if the hd660s is too bright, it means that 99% of headphones are much brighter than this and everything must be redefined in terms of neutrality.

The goldenear site, which I consider legendary, positions the HD650 at -1 brightness, the HD800 at +5 and HD700 at +2. It's only +2 because the hd700 isn't bright all over but has a huge peak and with some of the music this cannot be easily noticed. Only when strong sounds fall into that peak you get the ear ache.
So, if the hd660s is just a little brighter than hd650 (-1) and fairly darker than the hd700 (+2), guess what, there's 0 right in that spot.

And, when a headphone is perfectly balanced among all the hundreds of unbalanced models on the market and is also very detailed, what can you say bad about it? Oh, a misterious "grain" that only 1 in 10 people can hear or "an edge", which is called dynamic and lively for people that can see the hd650 flaws and understand the solution.

Strange how nobody detected the grain in the hd700 using the same drivers. The hd700 had real flaws so nobody had the need to come up with imaginary ones. They praised it as clean, detailed, but peaky and hollow sounding. Now all of a sudden there's the grain. I'm very skeptic of this, honestly.

Yes, the hd650 can be said to sound very "natural" by smoothing out textures, making sounds pleasant and polite, masking artifacts in recordings, but I wouldn't call that a correct sound. I too reach for them sometimes, despite having the hd660s, especially when I'm tired, looking for a smooth relaxing presentation, but I know this is not a good quality in absolute terms but merely a particular characteristic. The hd660s is good in an absolute way, directly conveying the correct information from the CD, without much manipulation.

I wouldn't call people hearing grain in the HD 660 S wrong, especially since I heard it day one, I was hoping it would go away with burn-in but never fully did. I hear this grain compared to more dynamic and lively headphones, it has nothing to do with how lively and dynamic the headphone is. I also find the HD 600 and HD 650 to have some grain to their sound so it's not really a new criticism of the HD 6xx family to my ears. I haven't personally spent much time with the HD 700 so I don't it very well. The HD 660 S is a better and more resolving headphone than the HD 650 or HD 600 to my ears and I'll reach for the HD 660 S over the HD 600/650 pretty much any day but if I hear something that bothers me with a headphones sound I'm not going to lie about it. I definitely agree with you about the HD 650, I find it does smooth out textures, it's why I always grew bored with the HD 650.

 

[vaibhavp]

I wouldn't call people hearing grain in the HD 660 S wrong, especially since I heard it day one, I was hoping it would go away with burn-in but never fully did. I hear this grain compared to more dynamic and lively headphones, it has nothing to do with how lively and dynamic the headphone is. I also find the HD 600 and HD 650 to have some grain to their sound so it's not really a new criticism of the HD 6xx family to my ears. I haven't personally spent much time with the HD 700 so I don't it very well. The HD 660 S is a better and more resolving headphone than the HD 650 or HD 600 to my ears and I'll reach for the HD 660 S over the HD 600/650 pretty much any day but if I hear something that bothers me with a headphones sound I'm not going to lie about it. I definitely agree with you about the HD 650, I find it does smooth out textures, it's why I always grew bored with the HD 650.

The grain i know of is present in almost all hps i have tried. All except beyer t1 2nd gen and hd700. Not yet heard hd660s, but if it has it, why single it out. Its present in hd650 as well as 800.

Its so universally present i have stopped being bothered by it. I notice it only when i AB other hps with hd700.

 

[kman1211]

The grain i know of is present in almost all hps i have tried. All except beyer t1 2nd gen and hd700. Not yet heard hd660s, but if it has it, why single it out. Its present in hd650 as well as 800.

Its so universally present i have stopped being bothered by it. I notice it only when i AB other hps with hd700.

I did point it out the HD 650 and HD 600 have it as well, so I wasn't really singling it out. Interesting you find the HD 700 doesn't have it. I'll have try and properly listen to the HD 700 at length sometime. I had a T1.2, didn't really find it to have grain, the sound signature didn't quite work out for me though.

I find I can only ignore it for so long then it starts bothering me, I am aware it's present on almost every headphone out there, but I've gotten used to headphones without it so I find it gets to me more than it used to. I'll just have to go on periods where I take breaks with headphones I find have it.

 

[vaibhavp]

I did point it out the HD 650 and HD 600 have it as well, so I wasn't really singling it out. Interesting you find the HD 700 doesn't have it. I'll have try and properly listen to the HD 700 at length sometime. I had a T1.2, didn't really find it to have grain, the sound signature didn't quite work out for me though.

I find I can only ignore it for so long then it starts bothering me, I am aware it's present on almost every headphone out there, but I've gotten used to headphones without it so I find it gets to me more than it used to. I'll just have to go on periods where I take breaks with headphones I find have it.

Cool. 700 signature also is a bit polarizing. If you wanna give it a fair shot I recommend mid focused dac paired with a neutral (wire with gain) amp.

I am using chord mojo (mids focussed. Sounds like hd650 with it. Otherwise mids are recessed) with burson soloist sl. There might be better stuff out there but i think hd700 sounds exactly like i wanted it to.

Or alternatively stick to 660s if you don't wanna put in the extra work

 

[kman1211]

Cool. 700 signature also is a bit polarizing. If you wanna give it a fair shot I recommend mid focused dac paired with a neutral (wire with gain) amp.

I am using chord mojo (mids focussed. Sounds like hd650 with it. Otherwise mids are recessed) with burson soloist sl. There might be better stuff out there but i think hd700 sounds exactly like i wanted it to.

Or alternatively stick to 660s if you don't wanna put in the extra work

Yeah I did gather that, the HD 700 is a very controversial headphone. But I do want to spend time comparing the HD 660 S and the HD 700 sometime as that is a comparison I haven't made.

I'll just stick with the HD 660 S as I do like the headphone quite a bit and I have the Amiron Home which has virtually no grain for my main headphone.

 

[Mike F]

Yes, the hd650 can be said to sound very "natural" by smoothing out textures, making sounds pleasant and polite, masking artifacts in recordings, but I wouldn't call that a correct sound. I too reach for them sometimes, despite having the hd660s, especially when I'm tired, looking for a smooth relaxing presentation, but I know this is not a good quality in absolute terms but merely a particular characteristic. The hd660s is good in an absolute way, directly conveying the correct information from the CD, without much manipulation.

I wouldn't call people hearing grain in the HD 660 S wrong, especially since I heard it day one, I was hoping it would go away with burn-in but never fully did. I hear this grain compared to more dynamic and lively headphones, it has nothing to do with how lively and dynamic the headphone is. I also find the HD 600 and HD 650 to have some grain to their sound so it's not really a new criticism of the HD 6xx family to my ears. I haven't personally spent much time with the HD 700 so I don't it very well. The HD 660 S is a better and more resolving headphone than the HD 650 or HD 600 to my ears and I'll reach for the HD 660 S over the HD 600/650 pretty much any day but if I hear something that bothers me with a headphones sound I'm not going to lie about it. I definitely agree with you about the HD 650, I find it does smooth out textures, it's why I always grew bored with the HD 650.

I'd like to ask you guys who actually have both the HD 650 and HD 660 S a specific question. Setting aside the issue of grain for a moment, what concerns me more is the reported loss of the low level detail in the HD 660 S that the HD 650 reproduces. I just love the dark presentation of the HD 650 that is still very finely detailed, and wouldn't want to trade that for slightly less resolution and a brighter sound. So, could you do some very careful listening to some music with lots of ambient information - space, air - fine details - percussion, acoustic instruments - I'm sure you know how to listen for fine micro details, and tell me which headphone is the more resolving. I'm not talking about how obvious those details are made - I imagine that would be the HD 660 S, but how much fine details and texture can be heard.

I hope that you can do this in an unbiased way (even though it will of course always be somewhat subjective), and I will then attempt to interpret your answers in an equally unbiased way. I'm genuinely interested in this because it's such an important issue for me. Thanks!

 

[kman1211]

I'd like to ask you guys who actually have both the HD 650 and HD 660 S a specific question. Setting aside the issue of grain for a moment, what concerns me more is the reported loss of the low level detail in the HD 660 S that the HD 650 reproduces. I just love the dark presentation of the HD 650 that is still very finely detailed, and wouldn't want to trade that for slightly less resolution and a brighter sound. So, could you do some very careful listening to some music with lots of ambient information - space, air - fine details - percussion, acoustic instruments - I'm sure you know how to listen for fine micro details, and tell me which headphone is the more resolving. I'm not talking about how obvious those details are made - I imagine that would be the HD 660 S, but how much fine details and texture can be heard.

I hope that you can do this in an unbiased way (even though it will of course always be somewhat subjective), and I will then attempt to interpret your answers in an equally unbiased way. I'm genuinely interested in this because it's such an important issue for me. Thanks!

I'll have to borrow a friends HD 650 to make that comparison properly, but I'll try to get an HD 650 in house soon for a more in-depth comparison between the HD 650 and HD 660 S. I've done that comparison with my Amiron and DT 480 to the HD 650 and the HD 650 lost to those in terms of micro detail and I can say the HD 660 S loses to those as well in terms of microdetail. So sadly I can't say for certain on the HD 650 vs HD 660 S right now because the comparison to the Beyers doesn't help me draw any conclusions on the microdetail between the two Senns.

 

[Mike F]

I'll have to borrow a friends HD 650 to make that comparison properly, but I'll try to get an HD 650 in house soon for a more in-depth comparison between the HD 650 and HD 660 S. I've done that comparison with my Amiron and DT 480 to the HD 650 and the HD 650 lost to those in terms of micro detail and I can say the HD 660 S loses to those as well in terms of microdetail. So sadly I can't say for certain on the HD 650 vs HD 660 S right now because the comparison to the Beyers doesn't help me draw any conclusions on the microdetail between the two Senns.

Thanks for the quick reply. I'd be very grateful if you can do that at some point.

 

[Sigmaaa]

The hd660s appears more detailed than the hd650 to me, especially on some tracks, where some details become noticeable. I guess there are slightly more resolving headphones than both, but I don't care for the absolute detail by sacrificing neutrality to a large extent. The bigger difference is in dynamics and liveliness to me, hd650 sounds a bit lifeless and flat, athough relaxing.

The difference in detail is pretty small though, I would never choose between them on this basis, the improvement in tight sound and liveliness (for who likes this character) is more important.

Also the midbass bloat seems a bit less severe, although still there a bit. The hd700 seemed as bloated as hd650, but not because of the bloom, the sound was still tight, but because the mids hollowness increased the midbass impact too much, because I would increase the volume to hear the mids to my prefered levels, and at the same time the midbass went up, same the treble peak, ugly contrast.

 

[Mike F]

The hd660s appears more detailed than the hd650 to me, especially on some tracks, where some details become noticeable. I guess there are slightly more resolving headphones than both, but I don't care for the absolute detail by sacrificing neutrality to a large extent. The bigger difference is in dynamics and liveliness to me, hd650 sounds a bit lifeless and flat, athough relaxing.

In my question I said, 'I'm not talking about how obvious those details are made - I imagine that would be the HD 660 S'. In you answer you've said that the HD 660 S appears more detailed than the HD 650, which just confirms what I said, I think? I'm interested, if it's possible for you to say, which is actually the more resolving. I find the HD 650 to be more resolving than the HD 600 - I can just hear more fine detail with the HD 650, and this more than makes up for any lack of brightness. For me, the great strength of the HD 650 is the fact that it is so resolving but at the same time tonally accurate (natural) and is therefore so un-fatiguing to listen to. Of all my headphones, and any other headphone that I can recall, the HD 650's sound much more like a good pair of speakers. An inherent problem with headphones, as we all know, is that the driver is right next to the ear, so high frequencies (and all the associated reactions with the ear canal and so on) become a problem. Not a problem with speakers because the high frequencies are simply attenuated by the distance of the HF driver (tweeter) from the ear. The HD 650 seems to be almost unique as a headphone in addressing this problem successfully. And, BTW, I'm comparing them to these:- http://atcloudspeakers.co.uk/professional/loudspeakers/scm100asl-pro/

If you can to a careful listening test with some appropriate material, I'd be most grateful.

 

[Anarion]

The hd660s appears more detailed than the hd650 to me, especially on some tracks, where some details become noticeable.

Would you describe HD 660 S as "clearer sounding"?

 

[BunnyNamedCraig]

Finally got a chance to hear these. I was actually way more excited to hear these then the HD820.

I wish I was able to pick my own music and control the volume at the desk but what I heard I still enjoyed. Difficult to make an impression though given the amount of time I put into them (very little). The Senn booth was swarmed with people wanting to hear the HD820 so I just listened for a sec then peaced. I would love to hear them on a tube amp to see if they can shine as much as my HD600!

 

[donlin]

I wouldn’t claim to be able to tell if the 650 or 660s are more resolving overall but in one specific area, which is very important to me, the 660s is more resolving. I listen to a lot of straight ahead acoustic jazz and the sense of the bass player’s fingers on the strings of the bass, including the touch and the pluck, is really all there. Better than any other I’ve heard. It’s not overdone though. Not a clicking clack sound but realistic energy with the right amount of attack and weight. Really gets the PRAT right where most others are either slow or thin in this regard.