[bust3r]

Hey all, I have a pair of HD650's that is paired with a headroom (own brand, its at least 6-7 yrs old) microDAC but it's lacking severely in the bass.  It's ok at lower volumes until I turn it up and then the treble and mids take over, which is fine--if I can find an amp where the bass can keep up.  It's loud at high volumes, but as stated, bass starts to disappear.  I have read reviews where these cans can do much more with a beefier amp.
 
Question is, do I pair it with ANOTHER headphone amp or use one separately?  For example I'm hearing good things about the Schiit audio Valhalla2 that pairs well with the HD650's but say I purchase that amp, do I use it in coordination with the headroom DAC or on its own?
 
Any recommendations are welcome, but I'd like to keep it under $400US total if possible, or very close to it.
 
Is that a solid choice for these headphones or is there something that would sound better for the money?  One thing I am worried about is getting a hold of tubes for the amp and how frequently they would need to be changed out.  Being a former bass player, tubes are the way to go, but getting a hold of them and cost is another issue entirely.
 
This will be for 99.9% critical listening to FLAC music on a PC.  This is also paired with a auzentech prelude 7.1 audio card.  Just looking for something better to compliment it.
 
Thanks, I'll be keeping an eye on the thread!

 

[billybob_jcv]

Don't forget that for a guitar player, the tubes create the sound you want to hear. Adding lots of color and even distortion to the signal might be a good thing. In an audio playback system, that's not necessarily what you want. You want the system you put together to reproduce the sound the musician created.

Anyway, back to your question...

Does the microdac have line-out jacks? If it does, then you can certainly still use the MicroDAC as the front-end to the Valhalla 2. Or, if you want to see if there is any difference when using a more modern DAC, you can always replace the MicroDAC with a Schiit Modi 2 or Bifrost, or any other DAC with a line-out,

 

[bust3r]

Don't forget that for a guitar player, the tubes create the sound you want to hear. Adding lots of color and even distortion to the signal might be a good thing. In an audio playback system, that's not necessarily what you want. You want the system you put together to reproduce the sound the musician created.

Anyway, back to your question...

Does the microdac have line-out jacks? If it does, then you can certainly still use the MicroDAC as the front-end to the Valhalla 2. Or, if you want to see if there is any difference when using a more modern DAC, you can always replace the MicroDAC with a Schiit Modi 2 or Bifrost, or any other DAC with a line-out,

Yes that is very true, I didn't think of it that way.  I'd rather hear the sound the musician created, for sure.
 
Yes the DAC has a 'line input' and 'headphone output'.  The line input is connected to the sound card via a Cardas HPI cable.  If I can keep this unit and add another I'd rather do that if possible, but if not, no big deal.
 
Is there any links that I can look at explaining the difference between DAC's and amps?  Do I need both or can I use only one?  Better to use both?
 
I'm not versed in headphone amplification at all.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

 
Question is, do I pair it with ANOTHER headphone amp or use one separately?  For example I'm hearing good things about the Schiit audio Valhalla2 that pairs well with the HD650's but say I purchase that amp, do I use it in coordination with the headroom DAC or on its own?

 

 
Yes the DAC has a 'line input' and 'headphone output'.  The line input is connected to the sound card via a Cardas HPI cable.  If I can keep this unit and add another I'd rather do that if possible, but if not, no big deal.
 
Is there any links that I can look at explaining the difference between DAC's and amps?  Do I need both or can I use only one?  Better to use both?

 

Are you sure you're using it that way? The line level signal on the MicroDAC is an output on the left side, not an input; the inputs on the right are for SPDIF digital, and then there's USB. A line level signal is an analogue signal, and a DAC is a Digital to Analogue Converter. 000101010001100001010100010001011101010010 goes in, electric signal comes out; that gets amplified and drives a transducer (speaker or headphone), it moves the air, your ears hear sound.

 

See here how the MicroDAC's line output is connected to the line input on the MicroAmp? (nothing plugged into the digital inputs)

 
 

In any case you're not supposed to use two headphone amps simultaneously - the first amp can have distortion and the second amp can amplify that and make it more audible. Not to mention there's no actual benefit from doing so even if that wasn't a problem. Feed the headphone amp a clean line output from a DAC (or CDP, or whatever), sit back, listen. Normally I wouldn't like using a DAC with the jack layouts like on the MicroDAC unless it's with the intended amp (as in the photo), but you can always just put the MicroDAC behind the amp to keep cables out of the way. 

 

  Hey all, I have a pair of HD650's that is paired with a headroom (own brand, its at least 6-7 yrs old) microDAC but it's lacking severely in the bass.  It's ok at lower volumes until I turn it up and then the treble and mids take over, which is fine--if I can find an amp where the bass can keep up.  It's loud at high volumes, but as stated, bass starts to disappear.  I have read reviews where these cans can do much more with a beefier amp.

 

How have you been using the system anyway? If you've been driving the HD650 from the line output on the MicroDAC then it might be distorting in some way (just not obviously distortion) since it isn't a real amplification circuit, in which case practically any real amp is likely a lot more "beefy" enough compared to that.

 

Just to be clear though, you just need the bass to be audible, right? Because no amp will make any headphone sound like a subwoofer system, or a headphone that will at least make Lil Jon enjoyable without shattering the windshield on an Escalade. An amp will either tighten up the bass, or in the case of certain situations like when you have a problem with the output impedance of the amp vs the impedance of the headphone, add the missing bass. In your case the line output is likely to have an output impedance far higher than even 300ohm headphones, not to mention it isn't designed with enough current for the more demanding bass notes (then again, even my SGS3 has decent enough bass with my HD600, if a bit inarticulate).

 

 
Any recommendations are welcome, but I'd like to keep it under $400US total if possible, or very close to it.

 

Try something like the Magni2 Uber for $150 if you want to spend as little money as possible; if it was my money though I'd get the Asgard. Or the Meier Corda Jazz. I have the Meier Cantate driving my HD600 (and using an Ibasso D-Zero as a DAC) and the bass on Melissa Auf Der Maur's OOOMcomes through loud and clear without getting in the way of the guitars.

 

[Mr Rick]

 
Yes that is very true, I didn't think of it that way.  I'd rather hear the sound the musician created, for sure.
 
Yes the DAC has a 'line input' and 'headphone output'.  The line input is connected to the sound card via a Cardas HPI cable.  If I can keep this unit and add another I'd rather do that if possible, but if not, no big deal.
 
Is there any links that I can look at explaining the difference between DAC's and amps?  Do I need both or can I use only one?  Better to use both?
 
I'm not versed in headphone amplification at all.

Spend a few hours on the Schiit website and I guarantee you, you will come away with a much better understanding of all things Head-Fi.  
 
As to the question of tubes and their availability, Schitt offer replacement tubes for a very reasonable cost, or you can tube roll if you want to spend more.

 

[billybob_jcv]

OK, here's the scoop:

DAC = Digital to Analog Converter. As the name says, this converts the digital media file (mp3, aac, flac, etc) into a analog audio signal that can be amplified and sent to the headphones.

Amp - Analog Signal Amplifier. This is circuitry that increases the voltage of the audio signal (volume) and also (hopefully) meets the current demands of the headphones.

A typical PC soundcard is composed (at a minimum) of a DAC and an amp. Your source media file is converted into an analog signal by the DAC in your soundcard, then the resulting analog signal is amplified by the amp in the soundcard and sent to the headphones.

I'm a little confused by how you have your MicroDAC attached to your PC. Here is the back of the MicroDAC:




For inputs, it has USB, digital coaxial and digital optical. Which of these are you using? Do you also have a Headroom MicroAmp?

Typically, the MicroDAC is connected to a USB port on the PC, and that completely bypasses the internal soundcard of the PC. The MicroDAC becomes your soundcard. The MicroDAC is also connected to a separate headphone amp (like the MicroDAC) to provide amplification and a volume control. It is usually not recommended to plug your headphones directly into the line output of a DAC that does not have an integrated amp. It can be done, and it will work, but the line-output does not provide the voltage levels and output impedance that is best for a headphone. That's the job of the headphone amp.

So - tell us how you have the MicroDAC currently connected, and then we'll be able to set you right!


Edit: lol - it looks like everyone is already jumping-in to set you right!!

 

[HPiper]

I'd look at the Asgard 2, lots and lots of clean power and no tubes to worry about. Plug and play all the way. What are you using for a source? Listening via a usb port on your computer or old school with a cd player.

 

[bust3r]

   
 

Are you sure you're using it that way? The line level signal on the MicroDAC is an output on the left side, not an input; the inputs on the right are for SPDIF digital, and then there's USB. A line level signal is an analogue signal, and a DAC is a Digital to Analogue Converter. 000101010001100001010100010001011101010010 goes in, electric signal comes out; that gets amplified and drives a transducer (speaker or headphone), it moves the air, your ears hear sound.

 

See here how the MicroDAC's line output is connected to the line input on the MicroAmp? (nothing plugged into the digital inputs)

 
 

In any case you're not supposed to use two headphone amps simultaneously - the first amp can have distortion and the second amp can amplify that and make it more audible. Not to mention there's no actual benefit from doing so even if that wasn't a problem. Feed the headphone amp a clean line output from a DAC (or CDP, or whatever), sit back, listen. Normally I wouldn't like using a DAC with the jack layouts like on the MicroDAC unless it's with the intended amp (as in the photo), but you can always just put the MicroDAC behind the amp to keep cables out of the way. 

 

 

How have you been using the system anyway? If you've been driving the HD650 from the line output on the MicroDAC then it might be distorting in some way (just not obviously distortion) since it isn't a real amplification circuit, in which case practically any real amp is likely a lot more "beefy" enough compared to that.

 

Just to be clear though, you just need the bass to be audible, right? Because no amp will make any headphone sound like a subwoofer system, or a headphone that will at least make Lil Jon enjoyable without shattering the windshield on an Escalade. An amp will either tighten up the bass, or in the case of certain situations like when you have a problem with the output impedance of the amp vs the impedance of the headphone, add the missing bass. In your case the line output is likely to have an output impedance far higher than even 300ohm headphones, not to mention it isn't designed with enough current for the more demanding bass notes (then again, even my SGS3 has decent enough bass with my HD600, if a bit inarticulate).

 
 

Try something like the Magni2 Uber for $150 if you want to spend as little money as possible; if it was my money though I'd get the Asgard. Or the Meier Corda Jazz. I have the Meier Cantate driving my HD600 (and using an Ibasso D-Zero as a DAC) and the bass on Melissa Auf Der Maur's OOOMcomes through loud and clear without getting in the way of the guitars.

Yes, the line input is connected to the line out of the soundcard and the headphones connected to the DAC.  This is how it was explained to me by headroom when I bought the unit, to use it that way.  Apparently its wrong I guess from the responses here, but that's what they told me to do when I talked to them.  They didn't try to sell me a microamp at the time, they said this was all i needed.
 

  Spend a few hours on the Schiit website and I guarantee you, you will come away with a much better understanding of all things Head-Fi.  
 
As to the question of tubes and their availability, Schitt offer replacement tubes for a very reasonable cost, or you can tube roll if you want to spend more.

I'll poke around the site and see what I can find out.
 

OK, here's the scoop:

DAC = Digital to Analog Converter. As the name says, this converts the digital media file (mp3, aac, flac, etc) into a analog audio signal that can be amplified and sent to the headphones.

Amp - Analog Signal Amplifier. This is circuitry that increases the voltage of the audio signal (volume) and also (hopefully) meets the current demands of the headphones.

A typical PC soundcard is composed (at a minimum) of a DAC and an amp. Your source media file is converted into an analog signal by the DAC in your soundcard, then the resulting analog signal is amplified by the amp in the soundcard and sent to the headphones.

I'm a little confused by how you have your MicroDAC attached to your PC. Here is the back of the MicroDAC:




For inputs, it has USB, digital coaxial and digital optical. Which of these are you using? Do you also have a Headroom MicroAmp?

Typically, the MicroDAC is connected to a USB port on the PC, and that completely bypasses the internal soundcard of the PC. The MicroDAC becomes your soundcard. The MicroDAC is also connected to a separate headphone amp (like the MicroDAC) to provide amplification and a volume control. It is usually not recommended to plug your headphones directly into the line output of a DAC that does not have an integrated amp. It can be done, and it will work, but the line-output does not provide the voltage levels and output impedance that is best for a headphone. That's the job of the headphone amp.

So - tell us how you have the MicroDAC currently connected, and then we'll be able to set you right!

Edit: lol - it looks like everyone is already jumping-in to set you right!!

There is only the DAC, no amp.  My unit is older, there is no USB connect on the DAC that I remember, but i'll look again to be sure.  But the line on the DAC is connected to the speaker outs on the sound card.
 

  I'd look at the Asgard 2, lots and lots of clean power and no tubes to worry about. Plug and play all the way. What are you using for a source? Listening via a usb port on your computer or old school with a cd player.

Was thinking about that one, for the cost and no tube replacement, but won't tubes give a warmer, more unprocessed sound instead of solid state?

 

[YtseJamer]

I'm using the Vali ($119) and the Magni 2 ($99) with my HD650.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

  Yes, the line input is connected to the line out of the soundcard and the headphones connected to the DAC.  This is how it was explained to me by headroom when I bought the unit, to use it that way.  Apparently its wrong I guess from the responses here, but that's what they told me to do when I talked to them.  They didn't try to sell me a microamp at the time, they said this was all i needed.
 
 
There is only the DAC, no amp.  My unit is older, there is no USB connect on the DAC that I remember, but i'll look again to be sure.  But the line on the DAC is connected to the speaker outs on the sound card.

 

Hold on...the MicroDAC doesn't have a "line 

in

put," that refers to an analog input. The Micro

DAC

, again, 

c

onverts 

d

igital to 

a

nalogue - what you're describing can't happen. You must be using some kind of optical or coaxial digital connection to the soundcard (are you sure the cable you're using has the same kind of plug at the soundcard end?), connected to the jack on the right of the front fascia on the MicroDAC (as in the photo I posted - the one that doesn't have a cable hooked up to it), and then you hooked up the HD650 to the line 

out

put on the MicroDAC, which is the jack to the left (the one with the cable hooked up in the photo).

 

Are you sure we're talking about the same device here? Which one of the photos looks like the one you have? You might have the model that has both a DAC and a headphone amp in the same chassis.

 

 
 

 
Was thinking about that one, for the cost and no tube replacement, but won't tubes give a warmer, more unprocessed sound instead of solid state?

 

Actually tubes are more like to give you a warmer sound because it's "processed" - rather, "colored." Using a tube on instrument (pre)amplification and using tubes on a playback system are two very different things. If I use tubes on my guitar amp to make it sound warmer and I record that, then that sound will be recorded that way. When you run that recording through a playback system using tubes, those add even more warmth, the only question being "how much warmth" (note that many properly designed tube amps sound like SS amps, but generally a little bit more warmth in the midrange) while a properly designed solid state amplifier will generally have less THD and will send out a signal that isn't colored.

 

One other thing to consider is that certain tube amplifier designs only work well with a narrower range of headphones (or speakers). Use anything that doesn't have enough efficiency or has too low impedance on the wrong tube amp topology, and a tube amp might actually sound "thinner" as you push them (THD is actually higher, but the euphonic distortion is lower). 

 

In any case a tube or SS matters less than good circuit design; it's just that a bad SS design is widely accepted as "clinical" and people on both camps likely hate that, while a "badly" designed tube amp can be hailed as "warm and musical! wow!" or at the very least a tube amp with limitations are just used on speakers that maximize their strengths, like certain amps that have very clean output up to a point (like 5watts), after which the distortion shoots up, driving very efficient fullrange single driver speakers in horn enclosures (that only need 3watts to fill a relatively small room).

 

[billybob_jcv]

If you are connected to the speaker output jacks on your sound card, then you aren't actually using the DAC at all. I'm starting to think you must have a different product that I'm not familiar with. Here's an archive of Headroom products: http://www.headphone.com/pages/headroom-product-archive

I wasn't aware there was a Micro DAC that did not have USB and has a line-input. Does your's have a volume control?

 

[bust3r]

   

Hold on...the MicroDAC doesn't have a "line 

in

put," that refers to an analog input. The Micro

DAC

, again, 

c

onverts 

d

igital to 

a

nalogue - what you're describing can't happen. You must be using some kind of optical or coaxial digital connection to the soundcard (are you sure the cable you're using has the same kind of plug at the soundcard end?), connected to the jack on the right of the front fascia on the MicroDAC (as in the photo I posted - the one that doesn't have a cable hooked up to it), and then you hooked up the HD650 to the line 

out

put on the MicroDAC, which is the jack to the left (the one with the cable hooked up in the photo).

 

Are you sure we're talking about the same device here? Which one of the photos looks like the one you have? You might have the model that has both a DAC and a headphone amp in the same chassis.

 

 
 

 

Actually tubes are more like to give you a warmer sound because it's "processed" - rather, "colored." Using a tube on instrument (pre)amplification and using tubes on a playback system are two very different things. If I use tubes on my guitar amp to make it sound warmer and I record that, then that sound will be recorded that way. When you run that recording through a playback system using tubes, those add even more warmth, the only question being "how much warmth" (note that many properly designed tube amps sound like SS amps, but generally a little bit more warmth in the midrange) while a properly designed solid state amplifier will generally have less THD and will send out a signal that isn't colored.

 

One other thing to consider is that certain tube amplifier designs only work well with a narrower range of headphones (or speakers). Use anything that doesn't have enough efficiency or has too low impedance on the wrong tube amp topology, and a tube amp might actually sound "thinner" as you push them (THD is actually higher, but the euphonic distortion is lower). 

 

In any case a tube or SS matters less than good circuit design; it's just that a bad SS design is widely accepted as "clinical" and people on both camps likely hate that, while a "badly" designed tube amp can be hailed as "warm and musical! wow!" or at the very least a tube amp with limitations are just used on speakers that maximize their strengths, like certain amps that have very clean output up to a point (like 5watts), after which the distortion shoots up, driving very efficient fullrange single driver speakers in horn enclosures (that only need 3watts to fill a relatively small room).

 
 

If you are connected to the speaker output jacks on your sound card, then you aren't actually using the DAC at all. I'm starting to think you must have a different product that I'm not familiar with. Here's an archive of Headroom products: http://www.headphone.com/pages/headroom-product-archive

I wasn't aware there was a Micro DAC that did not have USB and has a line-input. Does your's have a volume control?

 
 
Apologies guys, it is the headroom micro amp that I have, I thought it was the DAC--that's how often I look at it...sorry about the confusion, I guess I should have gotten my information together before posting, again, apologies.
 
And yes, its connected the way I explained earlier, line input to sound card, headphones obviously from the headphone output.
 
Ugh, I can't believe I gave such wrong information and the confusion that ensued makes me want to stick my head in the sand
 
But yes, I need something with more power, and am taking the valhalla2 into consideration.
 
The unit I have is the 2005 Micro Amp (v.1) 9 volt version.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

 
Apologies guys, it is the headroom micro amp that I have, I thought it was the DAC--that's how often I look at it...sorry about the confusion, I guess I should have gotten my information together before posting, again, apologies.
 
And yes, its connected the way I explained earlier, line input to sound card, headphones obviously from the headphone output.
 
Ugh, I can't believe I gave such wrong information and the confusion that ensued makes me want to stick my head in the sand
 
But yes, I need something with more power, and am taking the valhalla2 into consideration.
 
The unit I have is the 2005 Micro Amp (v.1) 9 volt version.

 

Well now that we're sure it was an actual amp, the thing is now it's more of a grey area in terms of how much bass you can get out of the HD650s with another amp. If it had been the MicroDAC's lineout "driving" the HD600 then even the MicroAmp might have a lot more bass than that since we're talking about a line out vs a real amp. Now we're comparing an older, 9volt amp design vs...well, potentially any number of desktop powered amps. Despite its age it may not necessarily be a night and day difference in terms of bass.

 

In any case the thing with getting a better amp, barring maybe an impedance mismatch on the amp that needs "upgrading," is that among properly designed amps none will really "add" more bass. All it will do is tighten it up, if for example the prior amp is distorting. However, sometimes people confuse "lacks bass" and "adds bass" with "weak, inarticulate bass" and "punchy, tight bass" - so effectively in such a case the amp can be perceived to "add" the bass. All that those amps in question are actually doing is that one of them is distorting, resulting in "inarticulate" and "slow" bass (or loud but "bloated" bass), while the other doesn't distort at the same and even at much higher listening levels, so the bass notes remain distinct and detailed, and hence more easily perceived instead of getting lost in the mix. Basically, as long as your expectation is to have the bass audible instead of pumping out bass for listening to Lil Jon like one would with an Audiobahn-sponsored Escalade, then practically any amp with more power at the same if not less THD will get you some more bass out of that system.

 

As for the DAC, a separate DAC is really more for sending a clean line out signal to the amp, which your soundcard may already be capable of doing. That said you can try the Schiit Modi2 Uber for hte relatively low price of $150, especially if your current soundcard has SPDIF outputs (if you use this PC for gaming, you can send out an SPDIF digital audio signal that passes through your soundcard's DSP first - that way you can still use virtual surround).

 

[bust3r]

   

Well now that we're sure it was an actual amp, the thing is now it's more of a grey area in terms of how much bass you can get out of the HD650s with another amp. If it had been the MicroDAC's lineout "driving" the HD600 then even the MicroAmp might have a lot more bass than that since we're talking about a line out vs a real amp. Now we're comparing an older, 9volt amp design vs...well, potentially any number of desktop powered amps. Despite its age it may not necessarily be a night and day difference in terms of bass.

 

In any case the thing with getting a better amp, barring maybe an impedance mismatch on the amp that needs "upgrading," is that among properly designed amps none will really "add" more bass. All it will do is tighten it up, if for example the prior amp is distorting. However, sometimes people confuse "lacks bass" and "adds bass" with "weak, inarticulate bass" and "punchy, tight bass" - so effectively in such a case the amp can be perceived to "add" the bass. All that those amps in question are actually doing is that one of them is distorting, resulting in "inarticulate" and "slow" bass (or loud but "bloated" bass), while the other doesn't distort at the same and even at much higher listening levels, so the bass notes remain distinct and detailed, and hence more easily perceived instead of getting lost in the mix. Basically, as long as your expectation is to have the bass audible instead of pumping out bass for listening to Lil Jon like one would with an Audiobahn-sponsored Escalade, then practically any amp with more power at the same if not less THD will get you some more bass out of that system.

 

As for the DAC, a separate DAC is really more for sending a clean line out signal to the amp, which your soundcard may already be capable of doing. That said you can try the Schiit Modi2 Uber for hte relatively low price of $150, especially if your current soundcard has SPDIF outputs (if you use this PC for gaming, you can send out an SPDIF digital audio signal that passes through your soundcard's DSP first - that way you can still use virtual surround).

 

Really good explanation, thanks...if you google 'prelude 7.1' and click on images, you'll see what kind of sound card I have, its no slouch, it sounds incredible with the amp and bass is there but once you get around the 11:00 o'clock mark (on medium gain) it starts losing bass ooomph and isn't even close to distorting yet.  It just seems like the amp is really weak once you start pushing it, hence asking for something with more power.  I don't listen to rap or anything like that, mainly movie soundtracks and some electronic/dubstep stuff.

 

So do you think the valhalla2 is a more powerful amp?  This amp doesn't seem to get very loud at all before the bass sucks all the life out of it.  Anything else to recommend in the same price range?  250-ish..

 

[ProtegeManiac]

 

Really good explanation, thanks...if you google 'prelude 7.1' and click on images, you'll see what kind of sound card I have, its no slouch, it sounds incredible with the amp and bass is there but once you get around the 11:00 o'clock mark (on medium gain) it starts losing bass ooomph and isn't even close to distorting yet.  It just seems like the amp is really weak once you start pushing it, hence asking for something with more power.  I don't listen to rap or anything like that, mainly movie soundtracks and some electronic/dubstep stuff.

 

So do you think the valhalla2 is a more powerful amp?  This amp doesn't seem to get very loud at all before the bass sucks all the life out of it.  Anything else to recommend in the same price range?  250-ish..

 
There are also one-box DAC-HPamps like the AudioGD NFB-15 - hook them up with the SPDIF outputs from the soundcard and you get to keep virtual surround. No analog inputs direct to the amp section - not really a problem but that might be important for you.