Sennheiser HD650 up/side-grade

[Shark00n]

Hey guys!

I have a pair of H650s which I like very much. I like their build, how comfortable they are and the neutral, balanced sound.
Listening to vocals on them is awesome but lately I haven't been using them for music that much. I have them besides my desktop PC and their main use right now is gaming. Here they aren't perfect, I can hear clearly but positioning is verging on mediocre.

So I'm looking to upgrade, or sidegrade. My setup is:
- Home - desktop with Creative Soundblaster ZXR (80% of the time)
- Away - Alienware laptop (20% of the time)

I carry the headphones with me on weekends and use them on the laptop too. So anything higher than 300ohms is not really ideal because I don't have an external DAC (although the laptop has a tiny built in solution that provides some amplification).

Build quality is important to me. I don't like fragile things. My HD650s can take a beating! Ideally I would buy a pair of over-the-ear, open-backed headphones.
Portability, it would be nice if they folded so they fit better in the backpack, but it's not a big deal
Price, around 200-350€, in europe.
Sound, I'd like them to have a bigger "punch" than the HD650s as I listen mostly to electronic music, also positioning is a big deal, I only play FPS games.



Basically I want something with better positioning while keeping the stuff I really liked about the HD650s, like comfort and build. Also I would't mind a bit more bass
Maybe the Philips Fidelio X1 or X2?

Thanks!

 

[ProtegeManiac]

I have a pair of H650s which I like very much. I like their build, how comfortable they are and the neutral, balanced sound.
Listening to vocals on them is awesome but lately I haven't been using them for music that much. I have them besides my desktop PC and their main use right now is gaming. Here they aren't perfect, I can hear clearly but positioning is verging on mediocre.

So I'm looking to upgrade, or sidegrade. My setup is:
- Home - desktop with Creative Soundblaster ZXR (80% of the time)
- Away - Alienware laptop (20% of the time)

I carry the headphones with me on weekends and use them on the laptop too. So anything higher than 300ohms is not really ideal because I don't have an external DAC (although the laptop has a tiny built in solution that provides some amplification).

Build quality is important to me. I don't like fragile things. My HD650s can take a beating! Ideally I would buy a pair of over-the-ear, open-backed headphones.
Portability, it would be nice if they folded so they fit better in the backpack, but it's not a big deal
Price, around 200-350€, in europe.
Sound, I'd like them to have a bigger "punch" than the HD650s as I listen mostly to electronic music, also positioning is a big deal, I only play FPS games.

Basically I want something with better positioning while keeping the stuff I really liked about the HD650s, like comfort and build. Also I would't mind a bit more bass

One likely reason why you're not getting enough "punch" off the HD650 is because you're not using a high voltage output amp to drive them louder without difficulty.

There is one headphone with a similar sound that is also open back, has a low impedance (putting it at the meat of the power band of any amp circuit barring OTL tube amps), and just as important, slightly higher sensitivity, is the Philips Fidelio X2. Imaging however isn't as good as the AKG Q701, which is harder to drive than even the HD650 (despite much lower impedance, the Q701 has markedly lower sensitivity).

A couple of problems though. First, while imaging might be slightly better, it's ultimately not that much better, which is the case for most headphones unless they image or outright roll off the bass, since imaging when music is concerned is to push the bass drum behind the vocals as well as move the cymbals to the center. Perfect example is the K702. Sure it has more bass than the K701, but people still think it lacks bass, when what it's doing is imaging the bass drum farther back. Headphones don't work like speakers where a speaker that does the same still saturates the room with bass, so something like a Sonus Faber Stradivadi Homage can kick you in the chest despite imaging the bass drum to seemingly come from far behind where the speakers are. On top of that, people who have a speaker like that also have an acoustically treated room, part of which is isolation. Headphones can afford listening without bothering other people in the same building but without a room keeping ambient noise low, on top of which you're on a laptop that needs to move a lot of air to cool gaming grade components, not a fanless Ultrabook, will not prevent ambient noise from getting in the way of your music, particularly the bass. In my case using my HD600 with my desktop computer is enough to obscure the bass due to all its fans at idle, and this is already a silent enough rig that I've left it running for days forgetting I left it to download one day and I can't hear anything out of the room it's in (doors are already open and windows closed). So basically you might not get that much better in imaging while not getting a lot more bass than you hope for. And even for closed headphones the ones that do well in imaging aren't that well known for bass - the AKG K553 for example is just known for bass because the loose fit of the K550 and K551 made them sound like tin cans.

Second problem is that while they're generally built well, Philips isn't like Sennheiser when it comes to after sales support for parts. You're on your own, even for the earpads, when something breaks out of warranty (within the warranty period they'll replace the whole thing), so just be aware of this. At minimum you have to graft some HM5 earpads onto the earcups.

 

[Shark00n]

One likely reason why you're not getting enough "punch" off the HD650 is because you're not using a high voltage output amp to drive them louder without difficulty.

There is one headphone with a similar sound that is also open back, has a low impedance (putting it at the meat of the power band of any amp circuit barring OTL tube amps), and just as important, slightly higher sensitivity, is the Philips Fidelio X2. Imaging however isn't as good as the AKG Q701, which is harder to drive than even the HD650 (despite much lower impedance, the Q701 has markedly lower sensitivity).

A couple of problems though. First, while imaging might be slightly better, it's ultimately not that much better, which is the case for most headphones unless they image or outright roll off the bass, since imaging when music is concerned is to push the bass drum behind the vocals as well as move the cymbals to the center. Perfect example is the K702. Sure it has more bass than the K701, but people still think it lacks bass, when what it's doing is imaging the bass drum farther back. Headphones don't work like speakers where a speaker that does the same still saturates the room with bass, so something like a Sonus Faber Stradivadi Homage can kick you in the chest despite imaging the bass drum to seemingly come from far behind where the speakers are. On top of that, people who have a speaker like that also have an acoustically treated room, part of which is isolation. Headphones can afford listening without bothering other people in the same building but without a room keeping ambient noise low, on top of which you're on a laptop that needs to move a lot of air to cool gaming grade components, not a fanless Ultrabook, will not prevent ambient noise from getting in the way of your music, particularly the bass. In my case using my HD600 with my desktop computer is enough to obscure the bass due to all its fans at idle, and this is already a silent enough rig that I've left it running for days forgetting I left it to download one day and I can't hear anything out of the room it's in (doors are already open and windows closed). So basically you might not get that much better in imaging while not getting a lot more bass than you hope for. And even for closed headphones the ones that do well in imaging aren't that well known for bass - the AKG K553 for example is just known for bass because the loose fit of the K550 and K551 made them sound like tin cans.

Second problem is that while they're generally built well, Philips isn't like Sennheiser when it comes to after sales support for parts. You're on your own, even for the earpads, when something breaks out of warranty (within the warranty period they'll replace the whole thing), so just be aware of this. At minimum you have to graft some HM5 earpads onto the earcups.

Thanks man!

Yeah I get that the SB ZXR isn't the greatest but it has served me well. It has the option to amp 600ohm headphones but I don't use it. Maybe I should turn it on.

I'm set on open backed headphones. The fans don't bother me that much and I appreciate being able to ear other people. Specially when I'm with the laptop.

So you're saying nothing around this price point is worth an upgrade?

 

[ProtegeManiac]

Yeah I get that the SB ZXR isn't the greatest but it has served me well. It has the option to amp 600ohm headphones but I don't use it. Maybe I should turn it on.

That only ups the gain, not the output voltage. If you play GranTurismo/Forza Motorsport/F1 by EA, that's like toying around with shorter gear ratios. You get to 160kph faster, but you won't get a higher top speed.

I'm set on open backed headphones. The fans don't bother me that much and I appreciate being able to ear other people. Specially when I'm with the laptop.

It's not that the fans "bother" you, ie, you're that conscious about hearing them. The reality is that the noise is there between you and the music, so even if you don't specifically notice the noise it's still obscuring something in what you're listening to, especially the bass region. That's part of why bass-heavy headphones are closed back or they cram either several low freq BA drivers or a large dynamic driver into a custom IEM shell to get more bass while still sealing the ear canal as best as current tech allows (until we get intelligent nano technology IEM shells).

Hell even electronic noise can do the same. Noise might not be audible in some amps when the music plays, but part of the reason why Meier and Violectric amps for example seem to have a strong bottom end for some (while not as slamming as Burson for example) is because of the very low noise floor.

It's like how you can be unbothered by bad drivers to start honking much less open your window to flip them a finger, but that doesn't mean they're not causing a cascade of braking or any other abnormal dynamic that adds time to your commute and lowers your fuel efficiency.

So you're saying nothing around this price point is worth an upgrade?

I'm saying manage your expectations. You go closed back for bass and accept that imaging will get you less bass and cost you a bit more on the amplifier. Or just that the X2 is as good as it gets for your requirements.

 

[Shark00n]

That only ups the gain, not the output voltage. If you play GranTurismo/Forza Motorsport/F1 by EA, that's like toying around with shorter gear ratios. You get to 160kph faster, but you won't get a higher top speed.




It's not that the fans "bother" you, ie, you're that conscious about hearing them. The reality is that the noise is there between you and the music, so even if you don't specifically notice the noise it's still obscuring something in what you're listening to, especially the bass region. That's part of why bass-heavy headphones are closed back or they cram either several low freq BA drivers or a large dynamic driver into a custom IEM shell to get more bass while still sealing the ear canal as best as current tech allows (until we get intelligent nano technology IEM shells).

Hell even electronic noise can do the same. Noise might not be audible in some amps when the music plays, but part of the reason why Meier and Violectric amps for example seem to have a strong bottom end for some (while not as slamming as Burson for example) is because of the very low noise floor.

It's like how you can be unbothered by bad drivers to start honking much less open your window to flip them a finger, but that doesn't mean they're not causing a cascade of braking or any other abnormal dynamic that adds time to your commute and lowers your fuel efficiency.




I'm saying manage your expectations. You go closed back for bass and accept that imaging will get you less bass and cost you a bit more on the amplifier. Or just that the X2 is as good as it gets for your requirements.

I'm liking those analogies!

Ok. It's a trade-off. Can't really have both...

I'm having trouble finding the Fidelios around here. How do the AKG K712 Pro stand up?

 

[ProtegeManiac]

I'm having trouble finding the Fidelios around here. How do the AKG K712 Pro stand up?

Harder to drive than the HD650. Note also that in the case of the K7xx series and the X2, if whatever they're plugged into has a high output impedance like the ZXR and probably your gaming laptop, you'll EQ the sound. If you're lucky, you'll get a mudslide of bass, otherwise, you'll get a tin can. Especially with the AKGs that also come with lower sensitivity.

 

[cossix]

Regarding the "600 ohm mode", it's a marketing gimmick. Technically my phone can drive a 600 ohm headphone but that doesn't mean it'll sound good at all. Perhaps invest in an amp for your 650!

They're also not very neutral HD800 is neutral. 650 is very warm and relaxed. As a straight upgrade in terms of sound, the LCD2 is a good pick. The only issue is the matter of portability and comfort. You won't want to throw those around. They're also heavy as hell.

The Fidelio X2 may be more of a sidegrade. I don't consider it "better" than the 650 except in terms of gaming use. The X2 is much more suited for gaming.

 

[Renato Fury]

Want a cheap headphone that does not need amplification and is ideal for games? Sennheiser HD 598, problem solved. NEXT...

 

[cossix]

Want a cheap headphone that does not need amplification and is ideal for games? Sennheiser HD 598, problem solved. NEXT...

I have one and I agree, but he wants an upgrade or sidegrade. 598 is a downgrade from the 600/650

 

[Renato Fury]

I have one and I agree, but he wants an upgrade or sidegrade. 598 is a downgrade from the 600/650

I have one and I agree, but he wants an upgrade or sidegrade. 598 is a downgrade from the 600/650

Everyone here has suggested good options, but he can not afford to spend money on an amplifier, so all he has to do is recommend something that does not need one and that can meet his needs since his priority is games, ProtegeManiac told me once that he uses the Superlux HD330 for gaming with the HD 600, but I believe that the soundstage of the HD 598 can reveal very well where the counter-terrorists in the CSGO will be.

 

[Shark00n]

Everyone here has suggested good options, but he can not afford to spend money on an amplifier, so all he has to do is recommend something that does not need one and that can meet his needs since his priority is games, ProtegeManiac told me once that he uses the Superlux HD330 for gaming with the HD 600, but I believe that the soundstage of the HD 598 can reveal very well where the counter-terrorists in the CSGO will be.

in the CS GO You sound like a granny I play Battlefield 1 and Battlegrounds, not really competitively but I like to win

Thanks for the input. I already owned a pair of Senns HD598, they were pretty groovy. Although I hated the color. I'm also looking at the new HD599, but somehow Sennheiser managed to keep that awful creme color... I traded them for a pair of Beyer DT990s 250ohm a few years ago.

Then I got the HD650s and I really like their sound. It's just that I'm listening to more and more music on the move and less at home on the PC. I only game for 2/3 hours a week and it's always FPS games. Friends of mine with Kingston HyperXs or cheap Sennheisers have a way better sense of positioning than me so I figured I'd switch again.

I tried the AKG K712 Pros yesterday, I liked them a lot!
I get what @ProtegeManiac said about the bass. It definitely has more bass than the HD650s with my soundcard, but it's a bit muddy and definitely not so precise. (actually made me appreciate even more the HD650s, I was never amazed by them, specially when coming from the DT990s, but they are a damn good pair of headphones, at least for my untrained ears) Still, sound direction and positioning was top notch compared to my Senns, and I also really like the look and feel of them. They are a bit worse for music, but make up for it gaming-wise.

Speaking about DACs, I never bought one because it's a setup issue. I really like the Soundblaster ZXR with the Audio Control Module. I can have my 2.1 speakers connected to the back of the PC and my headphones connected to the ACM that's underneath my monitor. This way it's quick to disconnect the headphones and take them with me, or switch between speakers and headphones with the touch of a button.
Also the ACM has two mics which serve me very well gaming and in Skype. Audio quality is nice without the need for extra wires, mics, dongles or more stuff to disconnect when I want to bring the headphones with me...
If anyone knows of a solution that would work nicely for me I'm all ears.

 

[cossix]

Everyone here has suggested good options, but he can not afford to spend money on an amplifier, so all he has to do is recommend something that does not need one and that can meet his needs since his priority is games, ProtegeManiac told me once that he uses the Superlux HD330 for gaming with the HD 600, but I believe that the soundstage of the HD 598 can reveal very well where the counter-terrorists in the CSGO will be.

X2 doesn't need an amp either and is more on the level of HD650 than the 598 is. I still love my 598 though

 

[geomaso44]

Sony MDR-MA900. Its better than HD650 in some things and worse in some things. Both headphones have are quite natural sounding, offering good tonality.

 

[Arniesb]

Dude just buy X2 high res and never look back. DT990 was on another level when it comes to gaming in comparison to hd650. T1 was insanely good for competitive gaming, but slightly worse in Single player against dt990. My present HD800S Headphones is near best when it comes both things. X2 and Dt990 for competitive is very good choice and Single player is amazing on both. Fostex Th900 should be ultimate Single player headphones with as great competitive results or even better as Dt990 or X2 but not by much so you not loose much. Thats one of best headphones when it comes to gaming.