[Solrighal]

I think buying the HD 650 & driving it with a Crack but feeding it a signal from a PC's on-board sound is like running a Ferrari on meths. Just sayin'.

 

[donlin]

How do you find the BHA-1 compared to the Senn amp for the HD650? I never bothered with the HD650 until I heard it with the Senn amp, but never heard it with the Bryston.

I can't say because by the time I got the 650's, the other amps were gone.

 

[The_Terminator]

  Even if you were able to somehow take the internal DAC out of the computer it would sound better. Too much noise inside a PC. <snip>

 
This is the kind of oft-repeated head-fi-ism that is not absolute. It is sometimes true, and sometimes not true. It depends on the particular computer and its hardware sound configuration.
 

I think buying the HD 650 & driving it with a Crack but feeding it a signal from a PC's on-board sound is like running a Ferrari on meths. Just sayin'.

 
That totally depends on the implementation of the dac inside the PC. ...Just sayin'
 
I'm not trying to be flippant by the way. I'm merely suggesting that it's not as absolute as many head-fi posters suggest. You can feed a well implemented computer directly into an amp and get glorious sound without incorporating an external dac.

 

[Krutsch]

   
This is the kind of oft-repeated head-fi-ism that is not absolute. It is sometimes true, and sometimes not true. It depends on the particular computer and its hardware sound configuration.
 

There is some truth to that; I am impressed with the analog out from my MacBook Retina. You can read about the hoops folks jump through to build a "well implemented" computer for audio playback on other forums (e.g. computer audiophile). Frankly, I've personally found it can be some work to get rid of artifacts even *with* an outboard DAC/amp.
 
The problem is that a typical computer is loaded with radios (Wi-Fi, Bluetooth), processors (CPU, GPU, SoCs), a display, a hard drive, various I/O controllers (e.g. USB), a switching power supply, et al., all of which generate EMI/RFI, which can translate into noise. Worse, your computer is usually busy doing other things, which means that code trying to render audio, and the I/O controllers moving the resulting data, can be interrupted (even if briefly), which can translate into audible stuttering/clicks/pops/screeches or (arguably yes or no) jitter.
 
Off-loading to an outboard DAC that is galvanically isolated, with competent asynchronous data transmission, goes a long way towards shielding the playback chain from all of the above.
 
I'm guessing that you know all of this, but many of us have wrestled with this, first-hand, and it's not just dogma.

 

[The_Terminator]

 
I'm guessing that you know all of this, but many of us have wrestled with this, first-hand, and it's not just dogma.

I know it and I completely agree with it. I just wanted to point out that it's not absolute.
It becomes extra sad when there are a lot of folks who love their HD650 or whatever, but head-fi messed with their head because they read 'dozens or hundreds of times' that they had to have an outboard dac in order to enjoy their new purchase. I went through this myself over the years at head-fi.
 
There's a lot of fun, goodness, and sonic bliss to be had with dacs, amps, blah blah blah, but it doesn't make computer audio "absolute garbage" without it.

 

[Solrighal]

I'm well aware that some PC's are built better than others. Although I switched to a Mac a couple of years ago my previous four PC's were built by me. I've built PC's for others too. I don't think I said anywhere that the sound from a PC is "absolute garbage". I honestly can't be arsed going back and checking.
 
I have no idea what kind of PC he has but going on the balance of probability it's likely to be sub-par at best. Anyway, who spends £700 on headphones & amps and then penny-pinches on a DAC?

 

[SomeGuyDude]

Siiiigh, I am now in this thread because the 650s are on my radar after falling in love with the 600s. Testing will be incoming...

 

[The_Terminator]

  Anyway, who spends £700 on headphones & amps and then penny-pinches on a DAC?

Someone who only has £700?
Anyway, I see where you're coming from and appreciate your view.

 

[Solrighal]

@ scjarrett87
 
Would I be right in thinking you own a combined ODAC/O2? If so, does the ODAC have an output that bypasses the O2 amp section? Perhaps you could give it a try and see what you think.

 

[oldson]

   
It's hard not to take it personally when you enter with a statement like "I just woke up from a coma when I read this... are you serious" etc. etc.
 
To presume that an AMP needs a DAC is absurd. Why spend an extra $150+ when you are already content with the sound you hear. You can state all the technological facts about it but the truth is when you hear an AMP like the Crack paired with the HD 650's, it will wow you to the point where you won't be craving for any additional upgrades. My point was the Crack doesn't NEED a DAC. You keep pointing out how much a DAC is required when it is not, and if you really believe that you are just forcing people to buy more equipment that they don't really need. Yes, of course any DAC would make any amp sound a bit better, but there is no way that a DAC is required to make the Crack sound enjoyable as it already is. When I added a DAC to the O2, it didn't make me go WOW, I'm so glad I bought the ODAC. However when I built the Crack and used it with the my HD 650's without a DAC, I was instantly immersed in audio bliss.
 
As to your point of how the iPhone doesn't deliver good audio sound to the HD 650's--you're just twisting my words once again. All we were saying is that the HD 650's can be run on the iPhone without any problems. Does it mean it brings excellent sound? No, like I said, it provides decent sound but it doesn't make HD 650's sound terrible. It just doesn't drive them as well if you had added equipment. 
 
For your last statement, I wasn't talking about how you can't comment on its quality, I'm speaking about your belief that you NEED a DAC to make your listening experience enjoyable which is completely false.
 
James

unless you are listening to a system based on a vinyl record player as a source , then you have a dac.
i fail to understand your post. 

 

[The_Terminator]

I'm guessing he meant an external dac as opposed to the one built into the source device.

 

[Jimmy24]

I find it hard to fathom why you guys are so concerned about how my gear sounds without a DAC. I just don't feel I need one right now because I am enjoying my headphones as it is. I can buy any DAC if I wanted to but isn't the point of this to enjoy what you already own? Don't get me wrong, I appreciate your comments and suggestions, but it seems like you guys are forcing me to buy equipment that I don't need at the moment. 

 

[Jimmy24]

  I'm guessing he meant an external dac as opposed to the one built into the source device.

 
Yes, that's what I meant. Thanks.

 

[donlin]

I find it hard to fathom why you guys are so concerned about how my gear sounds without a DAC. I just don't feel I need one right now because I am enjoying my headphones as it is. I can buy any DAC if I wanted to but isn't the point of this to enjoy what you already own? Don't get me wrong, I appreciate your comments and suggestions, but it seems like you guys are forcing me to buy equipment that I don't need at the moment. 

I don't think anybody's concerned about how your system sounds. You just made some provocative statements and those will typically generate a lot of discussion.

 

[Solrighal]

I'm out!