[Ichos]

I love this! vague criteria for the cause, vague subjective description of the changes relative to an unspecified reference. and yet it reads as a statement

Yeah I know I should be a politician.

 

[kailok18]

No intention to start a war here
Have read a bit on the SE and balanced thing and opinion seems to be divided depending on where one looks. Technically seems to make little difference but aurally, the opinion is all over the place.

Will have look up the Topping. Thank you.

 

[PeteMtl]

No intention to start a war here
Have read a bit on the SE and balanced thing and opinion seems to be divided depending on where one looks. Technically seems to make little difference but aurally, the opinion is all over the place.

Will have look up the Topping. Thank you.

It’s been proven that the difference if any is minimal on a 9 ft cable. Balanced connection will have tangible benefits for speaker wiring when the cables are very long (30 ft, 50 ft, 100 ft. or more, resulting in less power loss that would result from increased resistance (impedance)). On headphones, it is a myth that it balanced wiring will sensibly change the sound. One element to take into consideration however: balanced amping on amps that may offer it with the proper wiring will result in increased voltage and power, since the amp is indeed offering increased power resulting from the balanced mode double use of amplification. It’s like using two amps instead of one or said differently, it’s like comparing a moderate voltage amp with a higher voltage amp. Does it translate to better sound: higher power may be perceived as better sound, and indeed if you use high dynamic range music listened at very high levels, the result may be cleaner power, less distorsion. But you may achieve the same results with a higher powered single ended headphone amp in the first place. So many Balanced amping fans may be right that the available power from the same amp delivering balanced versus single-ended power results in higher available power. In some cases, higher power or « louder » may be perceived as better. Ask yourself the question: is it truly better sound or is it higher available power when driving headphones at full blast? Louder isn’t a synonym of better. Headphone amps that offer balanced power are designed as more powerful amps in the first place, using both amp’s capabilities to drive a single stereo headphone. The same amp in single ended mode will only use half of its capabilities. The real question: do you need all of this power? Does it translate to better sound at moderate or a bit louder than moderate volume levels? I would doubt it. You may feel otherwise.

 

[jimmers]

Though I wouldn't necessarily disagree with what you wrote, I don't think it actually says much; however I don't really get ...

... Balanced connection will have tangible benefits for speaker wiring when the cables are very long (30 ft, 50 ft, 100 ft. or more, resulting in less power loss that would result from increased resistance (impedance))....

 

[castleofargh]

No intention to start a war here
Have read a bit on the SE and balanced thing and opinion seems to be divided depending on where one looks. Technically seems to make little difference but aurally, the opinion is all over the place.

Will have look up the Topping. Thank you.

you've got the right view on the situation. what's left is to interpret it. if globally a design choice leads to testimonies that are all over the place, the logical interpretations should be that there is perhaps no clear correlation between that design choice and sound, or maybe that many of the people giving feedback can't test for crap. in this case I'm of the belief that we're dealing with a generous mix of both.
it's obviously relevant to consider which design we'll purchase, but IMO, that's mainly because we want to save on cable cost by keeping a fairly homogeneous audio park. that's really my only reason to stick to one type of amp design. if others have better reasons, they have eluded me so far.

 

[tafens]

It’s been proven that the difference if any is minimal on a 9 ft cable. Balanced connection will have tangible benefits for speaker wiring when the cables are very long (30 ft, 50 ft, 100 ft. or more, resulting in less power loss that would result from increased resistance (impedance)). On headphones, it is a myth that it balanced wiring will sensibly change the sound.

As you say, balanced has benefits for long cable runs, as it is constructed in a way that rejects noise in a way that single ended does not. As far as I know, that is exactly what balanced connection was made for; to reject electrical noise better in long cable runs, mainly for studio and live performace use.

In shorter runs (like the typical headphone cable) the noise picked up from the environment would be minimal in most cases, and the better noise rejection of balanced would be a minimal advantage.

I do think that balanced may still sound better than single ended for headphone use in some cases, but not just because they are balanced; please let me explain my thoughts:

1. Power. Balanced amps often can output more power than single ended. This of course means more voltage and higher volume, but I think it also means they can drive and sink higher current and I further think that that may enable more control on harder to drive diaphragms like the 300 ohm in HD6-series making them sound better. However, a single ended amp that has the same amount of power would be able to drive the diaphragms with the same amount of control.

1b. Amps offering both balanced and single ended often have more power available in balanced, and because of that extra power in balanced may be able to drive the headphones better.

2. Summing. Amps offering both balanced and single ended often use some sort of summing circuit to provide the single ended output. This means that not only is the single ended output often less powerful, we are at the mercy of the quality of the summing, which could be everything from almost flawless to not so great and maybe even quite bad. This can make it hard to compare balanced and single ended.

TL;DR: I believe that balanced can sound better than single ended, especially with higher impedance headphones, but not because it is balanced but because it is often also higher power and the single ended output of such amps may be hampered by being of less power and the workings of the summing circuit.

TL;DR on the TL;DR: It’s not because it’s balanced that makes the difference, it’s the quality and power of the amp.

Anyway, that’s my thoughts and speculations on the subject..

 

[Ichos]

I have to add to the above

3. If your Dac is fully balanced by design then you have to use a balanced amp in order to utilise it's full
potential and not use the summed single ended out.
Balanced dacs are designed to sound better from the blanced out of course.

4. Same applies to dac/amp units or daps that are designed for balanced operation , in that case they sound ''better'' from the
balanced out which usually is cleaner with greater separation and wider stage.

 

[Ichos]

Enough with the old story that balanced was designed for the pro audio.
Yes we know that but now it doesn't matter.
We are at 2020 , now some dacs are designed full balanced ie. two dac chips , dual output stages etc in order to sound better.
Better separation , detail , stage , clarity etc.
And then we have full balanced amps not for long cable runs but to make use of the balanced dacs without converting the signal to single ended.

 

[PeteMtl]

As you say, balanced has benefits for long cable runs, as it is constructed in a way that rejects noise in a way that single ended does not. As far as I know, that is exactly what balanced connection was made for; to reject electrical noise better in long cable runs, mainly for studio and live performace use.

In shorter runs (like the typical headphone cable) the noise picked up from the environment would be minimal in most cases, and the better noise rejection of balanced would be a minimal advantage.

I do think that balanced may still sound better than single ended for headphone use in some cases, but not just because they are balanced; please let me explain my thoughts:

1. Power. Balanced amps often can output more power than single ended. This of course means more voltage and higher volume, but I think it also means they can drive and sink higher current and I further think that that may enable more control on harder to drive diaphragms like the 300 ohm in HD6-series making them sound better. However, a single ended amp that has the same amount of power would be able to drive the diaphragms with the same amount of control.

1b. Amps offering both balanced and single ended often have more power available in balanced, and because of that extra power in balanced may be able to drive the headphones better.

2. Summing. Amps offering both balanced and single ended often use some sort of summing circuit to provide the single ended output. This means that not only is the single ended output often less powerful, we are at the mercy of the quality of the summing, which could be everything from almost flawless to not so great and maybe even quite bad. This can make it hard to compare balanced and single ended.

TL;DR: I believe that balanced can sound better than single ended, especially with higher impedance headphones, but not because it is balanced but because it is often also higher power and the single ended output of such amps may be hampered by being of less power and the workings of the summing circuit.

TL;DR on the TL;DR: It’s not because it’s balanced that makes the difference, it’s the quality and power of the amp.

Anyway, that’s my thoughts and speculations on the subject..

I generally agree with your said comments.

 

[PeteMtl]

I have to add to the above

3. If your Dac is fully balanced by design then you have to use a balanced amp in order to utilise it's full
potential and not use the summed single ended out.
Balanced dacs are designed to sound better from the blanced out of course.

4. Same applies to dac/amp units or daps that are designed for balanced operation , in that case they sound ''better'' from the
balanced out which usually is cleaner with greater separation and wider stage.

I agree with your thoughts.
Balanced is not necessarily better than single ended, but I agree with you on the fact that it is preferable to go Balanced all the way (DAC, amp, cable) or else single ended all the way to optimize the sound. I wouldn’t put SUV tires on my Sports coupe Mercedes and vice versa...

 

[castleofargh]

As you say, balanced has benefits for long cable runs, as it is constructed in a way that rejects noise in a way that single ended does not. As far as I know, that is exactly what balanced connection was made for; to reject electrical noise better in long cable runs, mainly for studio and live performace use.

In shorter runs (like the typical headphone cable) the noise picked up from the environment would be minimal in most cases, and the better noise rejection of balanced would be a minimal advantage.

I do think that balanced may still sound better than single ended for headphone use in some cases, but not just because they are balanced; please let me explain my thoughts:

1. Power. Balanced amps often can output more power than single ended. This of course means more voltage and higher volume, but I think it also means they can drive and sink higher current and I further think that that may enable more control on harder to drive diaphragms like the 300 ohm in HD6-series making them sound better. However, a single ended amp that has the same amount of power would be able to drive the diaphragms with the same amount of control.

1b. Amps offering both balanced and single ended often have more power available in balanced, and because of that extra power in balanced may be able to drive the headphones better.

2. Summing. Amps offering both balanced and single ended often use some sort of summing circuit to provide the single ended output. This means that not only is the single ended output often less powerful, we are at the mercy of the quality of the summing, which could be everything from almost flawless to not so great and maybe even quite bad. This can make it hard to compare balanced and single ended.

TL;DR: I believe that balanced can sound better than single ended, especially with higher impedance headphones, but not because it is balanced but because it is often also higher power and the single ended output of such amps may be hampered by being of less power and the workings of the summing circuit.

TL;DR on the TL;DR: It’s not because it’s balanced that makes the difference, it’s the quality and power of the amp.

Anyway, that’s my thoughts and speculations on the subject..

1. higher voltage means you can listen louder, and that's about it. in practice you wouldn't purchase a single ended amp that doesn't let you listen to music as loud as you prefer. so starting from that perfectly expected point, the extra 6dB of the same stuff balance will let you listen up to 6dB louder than the other stuff that already went loud enough for your needs. the notion of electrical control for the driver itself would have more to do with impedance ratio. more power will not get through the headphone when used at the same volume, when we take a practical approach to the problem, all those ideas are really valid only if we picked an inadequate single ended amp in the first place. which seems like it might not be the most honest of comparisons ^_^.

1b. again we're talking about 6dB more in general, it's not a lot. would you go purchase an amp where you don't even have a 6dB margin between what it can output and how loud you will listen? I typically don't peak above 90dB when I listen to music at home, yet I purchase amps that can do 115 or 120dB into my headphone. like is usually advised for various reasons. so again finding ourselves in a situation where the extra 6dB from the same amp balanced makes a real difference, would mean having the wrong single end specs.

2. IMO if we have already purchased a balanced amp, we're going to use it balanced. why pay for the extra everything in the amp if we didn't have any intention to use balanced output? with the same idea, a balanced amp that has single ended output is a balanced amp and was clearly designed as such. the single ended output is probably there for convenience.





in conclusion, I agree with your general view, but not with some of your hypotheses about why stuff happen. I also take your TL;DR:s amps are doing a good job with a headphone, or they're not. so let's shake on this

 

[Ichos]

I agree with your thoughts.
Balanced is not necessarily better than single ended, but I agree with you on the fact that it is preferable to go Balanced all the way (DAC, amp, cable) or else single ended all the way to optimize the sound. I wouldn’t put SUV tires on my Sports coupe Mercedes and vice versa...

I agree that it is not necessarily better.
I just stated to the member asking that there is a good chance that with a fully balanced set up this headphone can sound more "open" with better clarity.

 

[tafens]

in conclusion, I agree with your general view, but not with some of your hypotheses about why stuff happen. I also take your TL;DR:s amps are doing a good job with a headphone, or they're not. so let's shake on this

Absolutely

 

[kailok18]

Before I can get an amp, I will plug the HD6XX into the FiiO M11 which output are:
16~150Ω (3.5mm headphone output)
16~300Ω (2.5mm+4.4mm balanced output)
Given HD6XX's nominal impedance is 300ohm, does this mean using the 3.5mm will be a no go at all?

 

[Ichos]

The balanced will be much better.