Sennheiser HD650 & Massdrop HD6XX Impressions Thread
Jan 18, 2018 at 8:39 PM Post #40,591 of 46,497
And how much will one need to spend for an amp for the LCD-2, though?

I probably should have phrased this differently - there are amps that have great synergy with the 650 but the 650 is where the Headfi Nervosa meme came from where you buy a $300 headphone and a $2,000 amplifier to soup it up when you could have just bought a TOTL headphone to begin with and a cheaper amp. There are lots of amps that do well with the 650 including solid states and DAPS but in terms of pushing the most out of it like removing the veil (I don't believe it has one and people are looking for something that it's not when they say this btw), increasing detail, less muddy bass extension and bloominess, etc. you need something that just has more control of their drivers and that usually only comes with very expensive tube amps or DIY ones like a Mainline or Crackatowa. If you want the classics then a Bottlehead Crack/Valhalla 2 work wonderfully with the HD650 but to transform them into better technical performers you need to spend more on amplification. There's just no way of getting around that. Personally, I'd rather spend them on more technically capable headphones which I do believe the Atticus and LCD-3 are. Their mids are the most liquid, smooth sounding with a much better treble extension, soundstage, microdetail retrieval ability than the 650s.
 
Jan 18, 2018 at 10:37 PM Post #40,592 of 46,497
Has anyone tried the HD 650 with the ALO Audio MKII?
 
Jan 18, 2018 at 11:13 PM Post #40,593 of 46,497
I don't agree - I love the 650s but TOTL would be something like the LCD 3 which beats in mid and bass extension, clarity, microdynamics, with less grain, etc. When I mean spending a lot of money scaling for the 650s, I'm referring to spending something like $1k+. If you have to spend 2 grand to get the most out of $300 headphones, you'd be much better off just getting something like an Atticus, LCD-2-C, etc.

The main issue of most planar headphones is the weight as @arteom noted and for many if a headphone is uncomfortable to use its useless no matter how good they sound and its one reason I've never traded my LCD-2 for another LCD series since I can only use them for 15-30 minutes at a time before the weight gets annoying to me. A BH Crack + good tubes would be under $1k and at this point its just a matter of slightly different tones, slightly better sound stage, slightly deeper bass and highs that higher priced amps will get you and for most the changes are not really noticeable. I've heard my HD650 on a Liquid Glass and while it does sound good its just different, not better, to me and a few friends that got to hear the HD650 on the Liquid Glass. I don't hear any grain on my HD650 and to me my LCD-2 has more grain.

Agree that the Jot is a great amp for the HD650 but its not a great amp for others like the HD800, HD700 and T1.
 
Jan 19, 2018 at 4:07 AM Post #40,597 of 46,497
Just because a headphone suites ones prefence doesn't make it TOTL, lol.

The whole concept of TOTL is meaningless as long as it's not a description of a company's best (Top Of The Line, aka most expensive) product imo. Everything else is subjective.....
 
Jan 19, 2018 at 7:55 AM Post #40,598 of 46,497
A BH Crack + good tubes would be under $1k and at this point its just a matter of slightly different tones, slightly better sound stage, slightly deeper bass and highs that higher priced amps will get you and for most the changes are not really noticeable.

The problem you run into with the Crack is because it has a high output impedance it actually creates loose bass and unwanted bloominess in other headphones so unless you plan on using the 650 as you're only pair then the Crack would be a bad option for other headphones but then again, a lot of HF'rs own multiple amps.

I've heard my HD650 on a Liquid Glass and while it does sound good its just different, not better, to me and a few friends that got to hear the HD650 on the Liquid Glass

I think the reason for this is because the 650s just can't make use of something that powerful because their drivers just aren't as technically capable as say, something like a 800S or Utopia. In fact, I think the 650s are best suited for mid tier amps like a Crack/V2 because while I've heard they scale greatly you're always limited by the headphones themselves.

Just because a headphone suites ones prefence doesn't make it TOTL, lol.
Not sure if this was directed at me, but not sure what you mean? Price doesn't always correspond to being better but in a good amount of cases it does. ZMF headphones are technically superior and just as comfortable if not way more comfortable than the 650s. I'm trying to compare apples to apples here by giving examples of headphones that have similar sound signatures to the 650 (forward, smooth mids, with good mid-bass, and rolled treble) but offer much better technicalities. If you have to spend a ton of money on an amp to get the 650s to perform to their best, why wouldn't you just go for the best to begin with? If you don't care about sound stage, microdetail, better treble extension, etc. then there's no point to this discussion.

Now, if you have about a $1,000 budget and that budget consists of the 650s + an amp, with which said combo beats something in the $1-1.5k range like a Eikon, or XC or something then that's great. I haven't heard of such a combo though.
 
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Jan 19, 2018 at 8:14 AM Post #40,599 of 46,497
My comment about TOTL was more on a general basis and I wanted to point out that I find the term meaningless as it by any other definition than the strikt meaning of it: Top Of The Line as in the highest ranged, highest priced product in each company's line up. Every other definition will be 100 subjective and because of that doesn't have any value in discussing imo.....
 
Jan 19, 2018 at 8:19 AM Post #40,601 of 46,497
Fwiw my favorite amp for the HD650 is the Burson Conductor V2+, I prefer it by quite a large margin over the Ember II.
 
Jan 20, 2018 at 2:21 AM Post #40,602 of 46,497
The problem you run into with the Crack is because it has a high output impedance it actually creates loose bass and unwanted bloominess in other headphones so unless you plan on using the 650 as you're only pair then the Crack would be a bad option for other headphones but then again, a lot of HF'rs own multiple amps.



I think the reason for this is because the 650s just can't make use of something that powerful because their drivers just aren't as technically capable as say, something like a 800S or Utopia. In fact, I think the 650s are best suited for mid tier amps like a Crack/V2 because while I've heard they scale greatly you're always limited by the headphones themselves.


Not sure if this was directed at me, but not sure what you mean? Price doesn't always correspond to being better but in a good amount of cases it does. ZMF headphones are technically superior and just as comfortable if not way more comfortable than the 650s. I'm trying to compare apples to apples here by giving examples of headphones that have similar sound signatures to the 650 (forward, smooth mids, with good mid-bass, and rolled treble) but offer much better technicalities. If you have to spend a ton of money on an amp to get the 650s to perform to their best, why wouldn't you just go for the best to begin with? If you don't care about sound stage, microdetail, better treble extension, etc. then there's no point to this discussion.

Now, if you have about a $1,000 budget and that budget consists of the 650s + an amp, with which said combo beats something in the $1-1.5k range like a Eikon, or XC or something then that's great. I haven't heard of such a combo though.

Agree that an OTL amp like the BH Crack is rather limited with the headphones that pair well with them but I guess I have quite a few that do: HD800 (sold), T1 gen1 (gave to son), HD700, HD650, HD6XX, DT-990 and HD600 (sold).

The HD650 makes great use of the capabilities of the Liquid Glass and the HD 650 driver are very capable, its why they scale so well. My point is technically the Liquid Glass + HD650 is way better than the BH Crack + HD650 but I prefer the tone of the HD650 when paired with the BH Crack. I'm not looking for perfect / neutral / natural, I'm looking for what sounds good to me.

As for the ZMF headpones (Atticus/Eikon) there is the weight issue like the LCD series.
 
Jan 20, 2018 at 12:34 PM Post #40,603 of 46,497
Agree that an OTL amp like the BH Crack is rather limited with the headphones that pair well with them but I guess I have quite a few that do: HD800 (sold), T1 gen1 (gave to son), HD700, HD650, HD6XX, DT-990 and HD600 (sold).

The HD650 makes great use of the capabilities of the Liquid Glass and the HD 650 driver are very capable, its why they scale so well. My point is technically the Liquid Glass + HD650 is way better than the BH Crack + HD650 but I prefer the tone of the HD650 when paired with the BH Crack. I'm not looking for perfect / neutral / natural, I'm looking for what sounds good to me.

As for the ZMF headpones (Atticus/Eikon) there is the weight issue like the LCD series.

I just got the 800's. I find it hard to believe that it pairs well with the Crack because while it smooths out the treble the output impedance suggests that it would make the bass muddy and loose and lose out on it's detail retrieval.

What did you notice differently when you paired the 650 with the Liquid Glass? I wanted one but unfortunately Cavalli is no more. I'm pretty sure I'm going to go with a Kenzie and call it a day.

I don't find ZMF cans to be a problem because of their excellent load balancing and ample ear cushioning and they set the bar for build quality that a lot of TOTL headphones are supposed to be setting. How does a headphone costing $1k decide to use mainly plastic for the sole purpose of keeping weight down? They should better engineer their cans rather than resort to using poorer material choices.
 
Jan 20, 2018 at 4:06 PM Post #40,604 of 46,497
I just got the 800's. I find it hard to believe that it pairs well with the Crack because while it smooths out the treble the output impedance suggests that it would make the bass muddy and loose and lose out on it's detail retrieval.

What did you notice differently when you paired the 650 with the Liquid Glass? I wanted one but unfortunately Cavalli is no more. I'm pretty sure I'm going to go with a Kenzie and call it a day.

I don't find ZMF cans to be a problem because of their excellent load balancing and ample ear cushioning and they set the bar for build quality that a lot of TOTL headphones are supposed to be setting. How does a headphone costing $1k decide to use mainly plastic for the sole purpose of keeping weight down? They should better engineer their cans rather than resort to using poorer material choices.

With the BH Crack the choice of power tubes is what changes the output impedance. The TS5998 or WE421A tubes that I normally use are some of the lower output impedance tubes and make the bass on HD650/HD800 very clean, detailed and extended while the choice of driver tubes is what can tames the treble or can make it more extended and smooth. Its all a matter of finding the combination of driver and power tubes that are to an individuals liking.

The Liquid Glass is an interesting amp since it is capable of using many different families of tubes and this in turn makes the amp very adaptable to various headphones. My friend who owns the Liquid Glass has told me that he has spent as much on tubes as the original cost of the amp since each set of tubes changes the sound of the amp with various headphones. The two things that the Liquid Glass does better over the BH Crack with the HD650 is the bass and treble extension along with the better imaging/sound stage but to me the better bass and treble extension changes the over all tone of the HD650 and made it less relaxing to me. Its one of the reasons I've traded my SR009, sold my HD800 and gave away my T1 since with all of these headphones every time I started to listen and relax I got caught up in listening to the details more so than just enjoying the music.

My issue with weight is I find comfort about as important as sound quality and I've noticed that many headphones are too large or don't have the adjustment range needed for smaller persons like my GF and old GF who are both on the petite side (size 2 and under 105lbs / 47.5kg). Any LCD series will just fall of their head if the move and while I haven't tried the Atticus/Eikon yet my GF got to try an Atticus and she told me its too heavy for her and quite uncomfortable. The thing that surprised me was that she also says that the Atticus is boring to her and that the Ypsilon R1 or G1 is better sounding and its not even close.
 
Jan 20, 2018 at 4:24 PM Post #40,605 of 46,497
I am back to listening to my Sennheiser HD650 headphones on my Lotoo Paw Gold Diana. I am surprised that this portable player can actually drive these headphones to painful levels.
 
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