[hakunamakaka]

A good amp with ok headphones will always give you a better result than good headphones with an ok amp. It’s pretty obvious that the speakers (headphones) can’t correct for problems earlier in the chain. Anyone who has put together enough two channel systems knows this. Idk why the headphone guys don’t seem to accept it. Source first, then amplification, then speakers (headphones). The good news about the 600s is that they will scale up very well as you improve your sources and amplification.

Well I usually don't bother with hard to drive stuff much. With speakers I always went with active monitors and regards headphones majority of them are easy to drive today. I agree that source matters and it's not logical to blow all your $$ on speakers/headphones, but things that reproduce sound is still a priority for me. I don't see myself buying an amp/dac first and then trying to find a headphone which would pair nice with them. When I hear stuff reproducing music than I can adjust what could pair with it.

When I was looking for my desktop headphone setup I went to audio shop and I've tried HD600 from various sources and they did sound good on some tube amps for cozy&relaxed evening listening sessions while timbre being their best trait. These amps though where expensive 2000$-5000$ + a good DAC if you want to extract the last bit of goodness from HD600. Then I gave it a go for Utopia which was driven from a portable DAP player and it was a game over for my wallet.
Different folks can have fetish for a different gear, some for amps, others for speakers or cables. My route with focusing on headphones\speakers first, simply works best for me

 

[Nouvraught]

Sennheiser HD600 Worlds most flat accurate transparent headphone. or so ive herd.

 

[limaaa]

Hi guys,

I have a question about HD600.
I really like the sound, especially for acoustic guitars and vocals. But on some songs there is sibilance and it seems my ears get fatigued. There is hotness in my ears like days after listening HD600.

I have also tried HD6XX. The vocals are not so forward like HD600, but they were muddy and boring to me. I prefer the sound of the HD600. But HD6XX were not fatiguing at all!

Now my question is, can I EQ HD600 to put midrange just little bit back? Can I make them not so fatiguing with EQ? Or should I just buy another headphones?

I really like the sound but I don't like what they do to my ears.

The amp is Asgard 3. The DAC is HRT Music Streamer II

Thanks!

 

[jonathan c]

…Source first, then amplification, then speakers (headphones). The good news about the 600s is that they will scale up very well as you improve your sources and amplification.

I agree wholeheartedly and went that route:

 

[Fat Larry]

Anyone here using the HD6xx to produce music with? I'm looking for some monitors at the moment and read that the 6xx could be a good option but have also read that it's bass doesn't go as deep as it could which would be a deal breaker as i'd want as much extension and clarity as i could get.

Is that the case with the bass? Any other suggestions if the 6xx isn't as good as something else? DT1990? Apologies if this isn't the right place to ask.

 

[Strat1117]

Anyone here using the HD6xx to produce music with? I'm looking for some monitors at the moment and read that the 6xx could be a good option but have also read that it's bass doesn't go as deep as it could which would be a deal breaker as i'd want as much extension and clarity as i could get.

Is that the case with the bass? Any other suggestions if the 6xx isn't as good as something else? DT1990? Apologies if this isn't the right place to ask.

There is a thread dedicated to the 650/6xx where you might get a more relevant response. This thread is about the 600 specifically. I own both 600 and 650, but I don’t do any mixing, so I’m of little use to you. That said, the 650 goes deeper than the 600 (or has a more exaggerated low end, depending upon your perspective), and the 600 is a little drier. You need plenty of power to get satisfying bass out of either - their strength is midrange, not bass. Can’t comment on whether 6xx and 650 are equivalent because I’ve never tried the 6xx - same for the old made in Ireland blue marble 600 vs the new made in Romania all grey 600 - but most seem to think that they are equivalent, for whatever the opinion of ‘most’ is worth. But my old blue marble 600s never hurt my ears with sibilance that didn’t come from somewhere else upstream (see how I did that ).

NB - As I’ve mentioned elsewhere, I did the Custom Cans copper weight mod, removed all the foam and changed the pads (all leather) and cord (Mogami/Furutech) on my pair of HD600, and I now prefer them to my HD650 in every way, including bass.

 

[mobbaddict]

There is a thread dedicated to the 650/6xx where you might get a more relevant response. This thread is about the 600 specifically. I own both 600 and 650, but I don’t do any mixing, so I’m of little use to you. That said, the 650 goes deeper than the 600 (or has a more exaggerated low end, depending upon your perspective), and the 600 is a little drier. You need plenty of power to get satisfying bass out of either - their strength is midrange, not bass. Can’t comment on whether 6xx and 650 are equivalent because I’ve never tried the 6xx - same for the old made in Ireland blue marble 600 vs the new made in Romania all grey 600 - but most seem to think that they are equivalent, for whatever the opinion of ‘most’ is worth. But my old blue marble 600s never hurt my ears with sibilance that didn’t come from somewhere else upstream (see how I did that ).

NB - As I’ve mentioned elsewhere, I did the Custom Cans copper weight mod, removed all the foam and changed the pads (all leather) and cord (Mogami/Furutech) on my pair of HD600, and I now prefer them to my HD650 in every way, including bass.

I also get very good bass response with the Dekoni fenestrated leather pads on the HD600 and the balance remains very good (though a bit darker). They sound very similar to my Avantone Planar which is another great studio headphone (and for which I also swapped pads) with the usual benefit of dynamic timbre versus planar speed. As a matter of fact I've been using the HD600 more and more lately.

 

[bagwell359]

A good amp with ok headphones will always give you a better result than good headphones with an ok amp. It’s pretty obvious that the speakers (headphones) can’t correct for problems earlier in the chain. Anyone who has put together enough two channel systems knows this. Idk why the headphone guys don’t seem to accept it. Source first, then amplification, then speakers (headphones). The good news about the 600s is that they will scale up very well as you improve your sources and amplification.

Transducers are the key. Maximize them and get more than good enough on the rest will always top any other formula in the vast majority of cases. True in 1971 when I started to pay attention to audio, true today.

 

[Strat1117]

Transducers are the key. Maximize them and get more than good enough on the rest will always top any other formula in the vast majority of cases. True in 1971 when I started to pay attention to audio, true today.

I’ve been in this hobby as long as you, and I respectfully disagree. Garbage in, garbage out - unless the transducers are so colored that they sound the same no matter how you feed them.

 

[bagwell359]

I’ve been in this hobby as long as you, and I respectfully disagree. Garbage in, garbage out - unless the transducers are so colored that they sound the same no matter how you feed them.

It's cool. I had a number of very hard to drive panels and ribbons thru the years, and some of them were not cool with anything less than a Krell KSA Series or a Pass.

OTOH, I had respectable speakers such as the Cizek 1, Time Window, Braun 710 & 810, KLH 5, Snell Type A and more modern ones like the French brand Triangle and Focal - and they sound quite fine with an Onkyo 7022, various Yamaha Int Amps, NAD 3020, some good Denon receivers

From about 1978 I had killer cartridges supported by great tone arms - starting with the ADC XLM, Sonus Blue, FR Mk1-3F, Carnegie, Parnassus, and several Koetsu Rosewood Signatures.

My best systems were heavy on the transducer spending and ample but well less on amps, pre-amps, and cables. OTOH I started to spend a lot on room reinforcements.

My best speaker - Verity Parsifal III. $25k, run with great aplomb by two Pass X-150 (used, cost me $4500). So, lets see lets get a Kenwood KD-500, SME IV, and a Shure V-15 (what's that ~2k) vs my VPI TNT Jr, Clearaudio straight tracker, and Rosewood Sigs ($12k). So take that $10k and buy some 400 wpc Class AB used Boulder amp (Kenwood rumbles like a person). Formula for crap sound in this case.

I've owned a number of great amps (KSA 50 & 100), 5 kinds of Pass, Bedini, Classe, Dyna 410, Ampzilla, Jadis, and pile of great pre-amps (GFP-750, ARC SP3, ARC SP-14, SP-15, Pass P) - and they were and are adjuncts to transducers.

Look at headphone these days - lots of people running $1500 cans on sub $400 amps.

Think a Grado 225 is going to sound great on a $5k amp, vs getting a high quality can - say a used LCD-4 on a Lyr-3 with a multibit DAC inside - that would dwarf the Grado.

 

[Strat1117]

It's cool. I had a number of very hard to drive panels and ribbons thru the years, and some of them were not cool with anything less than a Krell KSA Series or a Pass.

OTOH, I had respectable speakers such as the Cizek 1, Time Window, Braun 710 & 810, KLH 5, Snell Type A and more modern ones like the French brand Triangle and Focal - and they sound quite fine with an Onkyo 7022, various Yamaha Int Amps, NAD 3020, some good Denon receivers

From about 1978 I had killer cartridges supported by great tone arms - starting with the ADC XLM, Sonus Blue, FR Mk1-3F, Carnegie, Parnassus, and several Koetsu Rosewood Signatures.

My best systems were heavy on the transducer spending and ample but well less on amps, pre-amps, and cables. OTOH I started to spend a lot on room reinforcements.

My best speaker - Verity Parsifal III. $25k, run with great aplomb by two Pass X-150 (used, cost me $4500). So, lets see lets get a Kenwood KD-500, SME IV, and a Shure V-15 (what's that ~2k) vs my VPI TNT Jr, Clearaudio straight tracker, and Rosewood Sigs ($12k). So take that $10k and buy some 400 wpc Class AB used Boulder amp (Kenwood rumbles like a person). Formula for crap sound in this case.

I've owned a number of great amps (KSA 50 & 100), 5 kinds of Pass, Bedini, Classe, Dyna 410, Ampzilla, Jadis, and pile of great pre-amps (GFP-750, ARC SP3, ARC SP-14, SP-15, Pass P) - and they were and are adjuncts to transducers.

Look at headphone these days - lots of people running $1500 cans on sub $400 amps.

Think a Grado 225 is going to sound great on a $5k amp, vs getting a high quality can - say a used LCD-4 on a Lyr-3 with a multibit DAC inside - that would dwarf the Grado.

The examples are too numerous to list, but just off the top of my head - try running a $30,000 pair of Wilson speakers off a $1,000 NAD receiver vs a $1,500 pair of Totem speakers off, say, a $5,000 Naim Integrated. It will be manifestly clear where the money was better spent. Far more satisfying sound at less than a quarter the price. Not because the Wilson’s aren’t fabulous, but because the amp isn’t up to the task, and they will reveal its shortcomings. And yes, I’ve owned and amped, among other things, Wilson Watt/Puppies, Vandersteens large and small, quad esl-63, Joseph Audio Pearls, Totem Model 1s and my current Forest Signatures, even a pair of $150 ‘Best Buy’ Infinity’s (which sound better than they have any right to with a ps audio sprout in my son’s apartment, btw).

Cartridges are a different consideration. They’re at the other end of the chain and I can’t disagree with you there - I wasn’t thinking sources when you said ‘transducers’. I’ve owned everything from Sonus Blue, to modified Denon 103D to various Koetsus to my current Lyra Skala - plus literally dozens more. I still use an early 1980’s Cotter xformer for MC because I prefer it to the high gain setting on my Plinius’ phono section. Without a doubt, cartridges are by far my favorite components - and the closest thing to the source. A pair of well-amped Sennheisers with a properly set up vinyl source = audio heaven for me. YMMV.

 

[Strat1117]

Hit wrong button. Deleted.

 

[bagwell359]

The examples are too numerous to list, but just off the top of my head - try running a $30,000 pair of Wilson speakers off a $1,000 NAD receiver vs a $1,500 pair of Totem speakers off, say, a $5,000 Naim Integrated. It will be manifestly clear where the money was better spent. Far more satisfying sound at less than a quarter the price. Not because the Wilson’s aren’t fabulous, but because the amp isn’t up to the task, and they will reveal its shortcomings. And yes, I’ve owned and amped, among other things, Wilson Watt/Puppies, Vandersteens large and small, quad esl-63, Joseph Audio Pearls, Totem Model 1s and my current Forest Signatures, even a pair of $150 ‘Best Buy’ Infinity’s (which sound better than they have any right to with a ps audio sprout in my son’s apartment, btw).

Cartridges are a different consideration. They’re at the other end of the chain and I can’t disagree with you there - I wasn’t thinking sources when you said ‘transducers’. I’ve owned everything from Sonus Blue, to modified Denon 103D to various Koetsus to my current Lyra Skala - plus literally dozens more. I still use an early 1980’s Cotter xformer for MC because I prefer it to the high gain setting on my Plinius’ phono section. Without a doubt, cartridges are by far my favorite components - and the closest thing to the source. A pair of well-amped Sennheisers with a properly set up vinyl source = audio heaven for me. YMMV.

In my pinnacle case (Parsifal/pair of Pass) - my cost ratio applied to your 30000 speakers yields a $5400 amp(s). That seems very much in the correct space.

$1500 speakers and a $5k amp is a good combo according to you? I'll get a pair of Magnepan 3.7i (used one today in Cananda $3245 w/ stand) - $3200 for amp/pre-amp. Again I look at the Pass X-150 used for $1700-2000, and a pre-amp. Schiit Freya? Used Pass P if cheap enough, GFP-750 (design by Pass) from Adcom used ~$500. I'll take my system in any space bigger than a telephone booth.

!! The Cotter is a gem, haven't seem one in years. 103D does have that bass. I had the gear and at peak a collection of 12.2k vinyls - in 2015. Gear long gone and vinyl down to ~250 items I have not been able to sell. Digital (multi-bit) finally came of age.

 

[Strat1117]

In my pinnacle case (Parsifal/pair of Pass) - my cost ratio applied to your 30000 speakers yields a $5400 amp(s). That seems very much in the correct space.

$1500 speakers and a $5k amp is a good combo according to you? I'll get a pair of Magnepan 3.7i (used one today in Cananda $3245 w/ stand) - $3200 for amp/pre-amp. Again I look at the Pass X-150 used for $1700-2000, and a pre-amp. Schiit Freya? Used Pass P if cheap enough, GFP-750 (design by Pass) from Adcom used ~$500. I'll take my system in any space bigger than a telephone booth.

!! The Cotter is a gem, haven't seem one in years. 103D does have that bass. I had the gear and at peak a collection of 12.2k vinyls - in 2015. Gear long gone and vinyl down to ~250 items I have not been able to sell. Digital (multi-bit) finally came of age.

What I said was that a $5000 amp with $1500 speakers would be more satisfying than $30,000 speakers with a $1,000 amp. I intentionally used exaggerated examples to be as clear as possible. I never said it was ‘a good system’ (although that naim/totem combo IS good, as would be the Pass Labs/Magnepan combo you recommend - 2 other personal faves, although I’ve mostly been a VTL guy for the past 20 years until I found the Plinius integrated when I downsized a few years ago). Anyway, I’ve always wanted Maggies but just don’t have the right room for them. Probably the greatest bargain in hifi. Indeed, the Maggies illustrate my original point beautifully - better to put a good amp with a relatively inexpensive pair of Maggies than a so-so amp with a pair of (pick your $20k speaker here) almost every time. But we’ve gotten far afield from sennheiser 600s. 62 years old, 50 years involved in the audio hobby, and still getting drawn into rabbit hole discussions on the minutia of hifi - I guess it’s just part of the deal. Lol! Anyway, more to the point - no, I’m not saying a pair of 225s with a 5k amp will beat a Lyr 3 (quite a good amp) with LCD-4. But I am saying that if you have a pair of HD600 (see how I brought that around) running off your computer sound card, you’d get more out of buying a Lyr 3 for $4-$500 than you would get out of buying a pair of LCD-4 for $2,500.

NB: I had Time Windows too! Got them cheap when American Audiophile was closing their Madison Ave. store in the early ‘80s.

 

[bagwell359]

What I said was that a $5000 amp with $1500 speakers would be more satisfying than $30,000 speakers with a $1,000 amp. I intentionally used exaggerated examples to be as clear as possible.

If the speakers have a decent load - like say 4 ohms. Then a used Ragnarok 1 that can be had for about $850 puts out 100 wpc - and I'd much rather listen to that myself.

I never said it was ‘a good system’ (although that naim/totem combo IS good, as would be the Pass Labs/Magnepan combo you recommend - 2 other personal faves, although I’ve mostly been a VTL guy for the past 20 years until I found the Plinius integrated when I downsized a few years ago). Anyway, I’ve always wanted Maggies but just don’t have the right room for them. Probably the greatest bargain in hifi. Indeed, the Maggies illustrate my original point beautifully - better to put a good amp with a relatively inexpensive pair of Maggies than a so-so amp with a pair of (pick your $20k speaker here) almost every time. But we’ve gotten far afield from sennheiser 600s. 62 years old, 50 years involved in the audio hobby, and still getting drawn into rabbit hole discussions on the minutia of hifi - I guess it’s just part of the deal. Lol! Anyway, more to the point - no, I’m not saying a pair of 225s with a 5k amp will beat a Lyr 3 (quite a good amp) with LCD-4. But I am saying that if you have a pair of HD600 (see how I brought that around) running off your computer sound card, you’d get more out of buying a Lyr 3 for $4-$500 than you would get out of buying a pair of LCD-4 for $2,500.

NB: I had Time Windows too! Got them cheap when American Audiophile was closing their Madison Ave. store in the early ‘80s.

OK I promise last post this thread with these topics.

Owned many Maggies, not very amp fussy. They like current. A 200 wpc Class AB amp is enough for most of them. Must disagree on the $20k speaker thing. I owned about a dozen panels from Quad ESL to ML CLS IIz w/ Gradient subs (probably only subs fast enough for panels) and my Parsifal speakers crunched all of them with a used back-up Bryston 3B amp circa 1978 ($425) running my ARC SP3 (the last factory mod) bought used for $700 in 1979.

VTL? I owned that amp they built around 1987 - the one with the 807's with the anode's on top. Great amp 150 Hz up, a little too jiggly in the bass long term. ARC D52 was better in that way. Jadis too.

Got my Time Windows factory new for $330. Cool speakers, if I had them later I might have tried a ribbon on top because they had a seriously declining treble. Otherwise interesting. I liked the Cizek's better.

I'm 64. Built my first Heatkit in 1972, first Dyna in '73, built about 8 Dyna 410's for college money. I started with many visits to the BSO in the 60's and early 70's. Started selling retail in 1976 (so I could get the discounts). Was an investor in a shop for some time (access to pissa stuff, first right of refusal on demo stuff up for sale, etc). Then started with rooms, eventually running a side business designing and building audio rooms, and retrofitting others.

Sound card? It's unreasonable to pair equipment that is not recommened by makers or senior users. I listen to almost all planars, tried my LG v40 with them, not good, not even good with the HD-600 (the DAC is far too raspy IMO). Almost no serious cans made today will sound OK on a sound card, but there are lots of amp/pre-amp combos under $500 that will do the job well.