Senn. 600 vs Grado 225?

[dmoffitt]

From reading a number of posts here, I gather the Senn. is a much 'darker' phone with a bit more bass extension - unfortunately I have yet to find a local place to audition them.

I'm a tweaky nut so I love the fact that I can get different cables on the 580/600/650. I'm a race-car nut so the carbon fiber thing is cool hehe... I guess I'm trying to justify ordering a pair unseen(heard)... Should I just pick up some 580s to get a 'feel' for the sound of the family, or is that not close to the rest of the line?

Also rough 'street' price of the 600s?

 

[Kirosia]

What do you listen to?

Rock and pop do well with grados, classical and stuff go well sennheisers. Of course both are pretty good all-around. the 580/600/650 are very source and amp hungry, so they're more of an investment if you get my drift. You can hook grados up to anything and they'll sound okay, but also benefit from a good source/amp. Street price of the HD600 new is about $200-$240, and used is around $160-200, I think.

 

[blessingx]

Along with what's been said and likely will, if you're a tweak nut, you may want to lean towards the HD580/600 (the difference between the two is slight and the HD580s can be found for $149 new). They are two of the most EQ-able phones, I've heard. Once properly amped (the big if and where the money goes - though you're set there), you can move these phones a bit towards whatever sound you prefer.

You also have the option of the H555/HD595, which is somewhat between the other Senns and Grados.

 

[bifcake]

Senns and Grados are completely at the opposite side of the sound spectrum.

The Grados tend to be very bright, fast and forward sounding, with very small soundstage (if any).

Senns are mellower, smoother, silkier sounding, with a very deep sound stage, greater bass extension. They're not forward sounding and they lack brightness,w hich some deem as lack of excitement.

So, I don't think the choice is whether to get the Grados or the Senns. It's more of a question of how you like your music presented.

There is no difference in sound between the 580s and 600s. What's great about the Senns is that they don't offend with lesser gear, and they REALLY sing with great gear. They give you room to grow and to a certain extent tailor the sound to your liking. However, I don't mean to suggest that you can make them sound like Grados with different tweaks. You can't. What you can do is make them slightly brighter, slightly more forward, etc.

 

[dmoffitt]

I think I need to hear some Senn's then, I don't like overly bright sounding music... I consider the HD280s I own to be so harsh on the high end and so colored and boomy on the low-end that they are good for two things - field production where you just need to hear what's getting recorded on the camera (the reason I still have several pairs of them), and shutting out noise on an airplane, where sound quality comes second to actually being able to HEAR the sound. Brightness / harsh highs are also my biggest gripe re: the SR60, esp. played off my powerbook's built-in headphone jack. One thing I find amusing, I must be like one of 1000 people who actually think my Grados are MORE comfortable than my Sennheiser HD280s lol.

Money is far from my biggest motivation when it comes to choosing a product, sound followed by aesthetic then cost is how I tend to choose audio equipment. I worked at (and now, at a different store, again work at) a Grado dealer, and thus have access to rather, well, shall we say 'favorable pricing' on them, so much that I would guess I could buy RS-2s or even RS-1s maybe at close to or less than the price of 650s, and 325s easily for less than 600s, so the fact that many (including myself) feel Grados are decent but overpriced is not an issue either.

I'm not terribly interested in changing to another headphone amp right now, as I just got the X-Can a little while ago, and I do like it's sound. I plan on upgrading it with an X-PSU (and upgrading the power cord on that) shortly, after I pick out a headphone... so with that in mind, will the Sennheiser still be a good match? I'm not terribly worried about soundstage, just a really enjoyable, smooth-yet-detailed sound. If I want soundstage, that's what I have my livingroom rig for - I just really want to have a listenable, relaxing yet gripping sound when I'm stuck at my computer doing all-night graphic design sessions or film editing work.

The music I listen to is mostly (75%) electronica, some pop / hip-hop with an electronic flair such as the Gorillas, a smattering of jazz - Miles Davis mostly, modern and classic rock such as Rush, Sponge or U2, and classical (most of that being stuff like film scores). Artists like Air, St. Germain, Paul Van Dyk, Propellerheads, Moby, Massive Attack, System 7, Bjork, BT, Mazzy Star, Faithless, Sarah Harmer, Ryan Adams, Aimee Mann, Beastie Boys, Antiloop... ok, you guys don't need my entire collection lol.

 

[mulveling]

If you can't stand brightness and harsh highs (like me), then you'll really like the Senn 580/600 and love the 650. The 650 is smoother and has a more natural tonality plus more extended bass. As mentioned, there's not much of a difference between the 580 and 600 other than cosmetic. For reference I have a Grado sr-225 that hasn't been used in a long time - too bright with the bowls and too muddy with the vwaps. Either the 580 or 650 would be a good buy, but if you have the cash just go for the 650.

 

[bifcake]

I agree with Mulveling. The 600 series (I include the 580s in that statement) aren't bright in the least bit. I love my 580s and I find most of Grado's offerings objectionable due to them being very bright. Too bright for my tastes. However, having said that, if you like the Grado sound, you'll find the Senn sound too distant/veiled/dark/boring/etc.

The Xcan is not a bad choice for the Senns, albeit not the best choice either. It's a decent entry level amp and the Senns will work fine with it. As I mentioned earlier, what's great about the Senn 600 series is that they grow as you grow. As you update your equipment, you discover the capabilities that you didn't think these phones were capable of.

Re: 600 vs 650, the 650's are more refined, more even, more of a flatter response. The 600's are fuller, richer, more palpable, less neutral.

 

[fureshi]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bifcake I agree with Mulveling. The 600 series (I include the 580s in that statement) aren't bright in the least bit. I love my 580s and I find most of Grado's offerings objectionable due to them being very bright. Too bright for my tastes. However, having said that, if you like the Grado sound, you'll find the Senn sound too distant/veiled/dark/boring/etc. The Xcan is not a bad choice for the Senns, albeit not the best choice either. It's a decent entry level amp and the Senns will work fine with it. As I mentioned earlier, what's great about the Senn 600 series is that they grow as you grow. As you update your equipment, you discover the capabilities that you didn't think these phones were capable of. Re: 600 vs 650, the 650's are more refined, more even, more of a flatter response. The 600's are fuller, richer, more palpable, less neutral.

I also felt that my old 580's with the foam mod were more enjoyable to listen to over a wide variety of music. I ended up listening to them more than the 225's, when I had those. Although I like my music bright, the highs on the 225's were too harsh compared to the 580's.

I had also used my X-cans with the 580's and I felt that they worked well together. I swapped the tubes for Ei Elites and the overall sound was slightly improved and smoothed out but not dramatically. I'm going to try the Electro Harmonix soon. You might want to consider changing the tubes for improved performance or if you really want to go all out, you can also swap out the caps and opamps for better ones.

 

[dmoffitt]

I'm back to using my 60s (found the adaptor) and now I remember why I got the 225... holy-ear-splitting-treble-and-not-enough-bass batman

they do sound quite 'honest' though... sometimes it's fun to take a step back

the only reason i haven't jumped all over a pair of senn.s is that so many people describe them as 'veiled' - i've got this thing when it sounds like a singer could have been singing a little louder, like you have to "listen too hard" to hear something, that is veiled to me, and i REALLY dislike it, almost as much if not more than something being too bright. I can deal with "bright" if it's not "harsh" too - good equipment can be extended without being abrasive... I'm really leaning towards some RS-1s right now, based on the 225 to 60 differences, and honestly I like the styling of the grados a lot... plus, in a pinch, I've heard rs-1s off an iPod, and it wasn't unbearable, so if I find myself traveling more w/o my amp, well, I wont' be up a creek as with the 600 series... but I would really like to find somewhere around here w/ 600s before making a final decision, or maybe find a place to order some w/ a good return policy (although I have a feeling if I got some 600s with a good cable, I probably won't want to return them!).

re: the xcan, i'm so very proud of myself, it's the ONLY piece of hi-fi equipment I've owned and NOT opened up / taken apart, damnit, now you guys have me reaching for my allen-wrenches!! I prefer to pick up mid-fi / entry-level hi-fi stuff like this piece and tweak it to my liking (I'm gonna look into caps, etc) as I feel it may not present as good of a value as buying high-end new (esp. when you go to sell it) but it's a hell of a lotta fun!

 

[bifcake]

The Senn 600 series is not veiled. Those who claim that it's veiled play it on crappy equipment. If you're going to use them with an ipod and a stock cable, don't even bother. They'll sound ok, they won't offend, but you'll be crying that they're veiled especially compared to Grados. However, paired with a good source, a good amp and a replacement cable, they really, really sing.

 

[dmoffitt]

ok - cable recommendations?

*hint hint* i like silver. a lot. smooth, clean highs (and anyone telling you sliver is 'lean' on bass just has weak amps lol)

I'm using some approx $350 ICs from my pre to my amp in my livingroom rig, obviously I'd prefer not to pay more for the cable than the headphones, but i'm looking for recommendations of quality cabling, if i'm gonna upgrade, i want it to be a DRASTIC improvement

i might just have to order some senn.s AND borrow a pair of RS-1s and just do a little personal shootout after a few days of break-in.

 

[dmoffitt]

quick question re: the 600 series - can ANY comparison be drawn to the HD280s? I hadn't listened to them in a (long) while - in fact, I tend to avoid doing so unless it's necessary (shooting video or traveling on a plane) and now I remember why... I hope / assume the 600 series is a completely different beast??

 

[GlowWorm]

Not much I can add regarding the sonic differences between the two that hasn't been already stated, but if comfort is an issue for you I would go with the HD580/600 over the SR225, because they are infinitely more comfortable for extended listening sessions.

 

[dmoffitt]

GlowWorm, I'm one of the few mutants in the world who feels Grados are comfy - in fact, I prefered my old flat pads to these new bowl ones... I've been wearing my SR60s (with bowls I stole from my old 125s) since, uh, like 9:45pm last night now. doh. stupid music, keeping me up all night! Well, that and having to read Othello (again) by 4pm today hehe.

Oh. I did take a short break from listening, broke out the metric Allen wrenches and deflowered my X-CAN. DAMN YOU GUYS! I'm hoping to pick up some NOS Mullard or Siemens E88CC / 6922 tubes to replace the JAN Philips ones....

ack, already tube rolling the poor thing (it was a demo from where I used to work, so it was already quite nicely broken in for a month or so when i got it). Someone had better restrain me from breaking out the soldering iron again, I replaced the cable on my 125s in an attempt to fix one side cutting out from time to time (turned out to be a bad driver, oh well)... I can just see myself butchering a pair of 325s or RS-x's to put in a nice AudioQuest Copperhead 3.5mm to RCA in place of the stock cable

 

[BowerR64]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bifcake The Grados tend to be very bright, fast and forward sounding, with very small soundstage (if any).

Quote:

Originally Posted by bifcake Senns are mellower, smoother, silkier sounding, with a very deep sound stage, greater bass extension. They're not forward sounding and they lack brightness,w hich some deem as lack of excitement.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bifcake So, I don't think the choice is whether to get the Grados or the Senns. It's more of a question of how you like your music presented.

exactly