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Schiit Yggdrasil V2 upgrade Technical Measurements

Discussion in 'Dedicated Source Components' started by atomicbob, Jun 11, 2018.
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  1. ProfFalkin
    LOL, the idiot wanted to make sure he could claim the DAC was "warmed up" if asked. I'm laughing my butt off right now. You're lucky he didn't pop it into the oven at 300° for 20 min...

    Glad your Schiit is ok after being fondled by Amir... Terrifying experience, I'm sure.
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2018
    bfreedma and dontfeedphils like this.
  2. bfreedma
    Thanks for the update. If anyone had done that to gear I lended to them, I would have demanded they purchase a replacement. What a complete lack of respect for someone else’s property loaned in good faith.
    Alcophone and dontfeedphils like this.
  3. dontfeedphils
    At least he had enough smarts to not use the microwave.
  4. Alcophone
    At least he did offer to do so if needed:

    Yeah, after this response to my protest, I wasn't sure whether he was about to perform a "routine drop test" next:
    Amazing how confident he is about the temperatures after saying "Due to reflectivity index of the case, it is under-reporting the temperature. It was quite a bit hotter but still, you get the idea."

    I like how Jude put it:

    Yeah, that was a bit of a roller coaster ride. :) But I kind of expected that. I'm glad it's over...
    thebkt likes this.
  5. inmytaxi
    You guys are being trolled. Just fyi.
  6. Bhargu
    You do know that industrial testing often takes units to temperatures higher than this, right. Or, as someone said, is this some kind of trolling?
  7. Alcophone
    Higher than what temperature, exactly? Please, be specific. You know, like an industrial test would be.

    I'm sure phones get subjected to submersion tests. Well, the ones designed to be water proof, anyway. Would he have been justified in dumping the DAC into a bath tub filled with water? Are the phones tested this way actually sold afterwards?

    Amir is an outspoken critic of Schiit's engineering skills. He has no basis for assuming that the Yggdrasil is designed to withstand certain temperatures. Even if he did, he doesn't even know how hot it really got. If he doesn't know, he can't guarantee that it's under a supposedly safe limit. Therefore, his test was reckless.
    RCBinTN and thebkt like this.
  8. Jason Stoddard
    Hey all,

    I'm sorry there's not a more definitive answer of what happened. However, no matter the results, it really won't be enough to satisfy those who are focused on conventional measurements exclusively. So, hopefully, let me try to find some end to this (sometimes seemingly endless) controversy.

    1. As we've said before (and as has been reflected in our published specs), our multibit DACs don't measure as well as delta-sigma. Period. If you are looking for performance on the analyzer alone, it's best simply not to buy a Schiit multibit DAC.

    2. The reasons that we don't shoot only for conventional measurement excellence alone? It's explained in the Measurements (With A Side Of Sanity) chapter, as well as in The Subjectivist/Objectivist Synthesis chapter on the Schiit Happened book, which is serialized on this site.

    3. I completely understand if you don't think we're quite right in the head. That's cool. There are many other excellent products out there for you to enjoy. We sincerely hope you find one that makes you totally happy.

    4. That said, we take every measurement and review seriously, because every experience is valid. If we need to make something right, we'll do so. If we need to make changes in production, we'll do that as well. We are trying to get better, and we are not perfect. Nearly every chapter of Schiit Happened outlines one or more mistakes we made, including the latest chapter on engineering. We try to be as transparent as possible about what we do, why we do it, and when it goes wrong.

    5. If someone really thinks that we are the really lacking in engineering skill and discipline, and want to help us make things better, they should simply send us a proposal, outlining where we are deficient and where we can use the help. My email has been published many times, but it's jason@schiit.com. We'll evaluate all proposals, provide honest feedback, and engage with those individuals or organizations that can help us. We'll even do it openly, if we're not bound by an NDA from the submitter of the proposal.

    6. Finally, if you have any issue with your Schiit product—odd measurements, operational issues, anything—simply contact info@schiit.com and we'll make sure it's sorted. If you get weird measurements, we'll be happy to run the product on the APx555 and provide you with a report, like we did with Alcophone.

    All the best,

    Jason Stoddard
    Co-Founder, Schiit Audio
    Schiit Audio Stay updated on Schiit Audio at their sponsor page on Head-Fi.
    https://www.facebook.com/Schiit/ http://www.schiit.com/
  9. Bhargu
    Guess it was not trolling. Also, I should say in advance that I was under the assumption that this Yggdrasil was a tube amp.

    Now, by high temperature, I meant 60° to 80° C or so depending on commercial or industrial grade equipment. I should also make it clear that industrial testing means units that show issues during that stage will be binned. It is a standard part of the QC process. For a device like this, which some customers are leaving on 24x7 for months, you needn't worry about those temperatures. The manufacturer would have taken care to select components of appropriate grade.

    Now, about the reviewer artificially warming your device, I am not saying that you are not entitled to be offended. I was just saying that you don't have to worry about such a test. Also, I commented above because I wasn't sure if this was just some sarcastic ribbing/trolling or genuine complaint. My reason was that a lot of people on here seems to have actual experience working in technical fields, so some of the responses were confusing.

    I apologise if I offended you with my insensitive response to your genuine concern.
    raoultrifan likes this.
  10. Alcophone
    Thank you. I accept your apology.

    As I pointed out to Amir in a PM, I don't feel comfortable with just assuming that it should be fine based on what generally happens in the industry. If Schiit tells me the DAC is designed to withstand certain temperatures in certain spots for certain amounts of time without any detrimental effect to the unit's life expectancy, then I can work with that. Coupled with reliable accurate temperature measurements (which wasn't the case here, by Amir's own admission), we would have established acceptable conditions. Everything else is just speculation, however likely it is to be accurate. Other people may be less strict, and that is absolutely fine.
    But all that aside, the conditions to test the effect of warm up were actually better before, when the unit had been on continuously for two weeks, as happens in real use. Nobody is suggesting the Yggy sounds extra good when it's extra toasty. There was no need to accelerate the warm up, at any point.

    To make it clear here as well, I'm not suggesting Amir intended on damaging my unit, I believe him when he says he felt this was perfectly safe to do. I just question the basis for that assertion, as correct as it turned out to be.
    raoultrifan likes this.
  11. newtophones07
    Few questions, as I am trying to learn, not argue lol;

    The FFT Spectrum output looks almost exactly like what is posted on the other forum---very interesting (am I reading the graphs wrong maybe?).

    The Relative level graphs much better, using the Schiit data, that's for sure

    The Schiit RMS level (Vrms) scale is different versus the RMS level (dBV) posted on the other forum. Would the change in units, potentially allow for a more linear output on what also appears to a wider scale on the X axis?

    Also would the new ROM, actually improve the sound reproduction on your returned unit?

    I too am surprised that you did not make that other forum PURCHASE your device, after he heated it up with a darn heat gun (WHOA). But hey at least you got the data, and a new ROM.
    raoultrifan likes this.
  12. Alcophone
    Heh, I'm in the same boat, so take what I write below with a grain of salt.

    It looks like Schiit may be using a higher FFT length than Amir, resulting in a seemingly lower noise floor. I didn't see Amir specify his, but Schitt's is 32,000. The 2 kHz spike is much higher in Amir's measurements while Schiit has a higher 400 Hz spike.




    I'm not sure which graphs specifically you are referring to. However, from Wikipedia: "If the waveform is a pure sine wave, the relationships between amplitudes (peak-to-peak, peak) and RMS are fixed and known"
    Peak-to-Peak ≈ 2.8 × RMS
    So the relationship should be linear for the tests performed here.

    Schiit just made sure it now definitely is the latest version, when before they simply didn't know for sure. Jason did not mention any specifics about what firmware changes may have happened since January. Even if there were changes, they may not be audible.

    He assured me that no harm has been done, and it sounded as great as ever when I received it. Now Schiit has confirmed that it's operating just fine. If needed, I would have taken him up on his offer, but I was also still hoping that AtomicBob or Jude would measure the same unit.
    raoultrifan and newtophones07 like this.
  13. adydula
    Bhargu…..why would you jump into a thread and start "trolling" stuff when you don't understand all whats going and has gone on here!

    You admit you thought this was a tube amp...really...

    Please think before you post.

    Last edited: Aug 3, 2018
    MWSVette and dontfeedphils like this.
  14. atomicbob
    When testing devices at high and low temperatures an environmental chamber is utilized, such as the following example:


    These chambers provide even distribution of tightly controlled and monitored temperatures. Example would be setting chamber for 45 °C (113 °F).

    Quite a difference from a device producing concentrated heat between 260 and 600 °C (500 to 1112 °F):


    Electronics device manufacturers use heat guns for heat shrink. Temperature related device behavior requires environmental chambers.
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2018
  15. hornytoad
    I have been listening to dacs for a long time and Jason is right, a multibit dac with never measure as well as a delta sigma dac.

    But the multibit dacs damn sure do sound better and more natural.
    bobsherman, RCBinTN and adydula like this.
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