I really hope this is an area that Analog 3 boards improve upon, tho. Kinda silly that the SE outputs are somewhat gimped.
Schiit Yggdrasil Impressions thread
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johnjen
Headphoneus Supremus
Using an external 'converter' will likely yield the same SQ as using the SE outputs, just because.
You could try using a pair of xfmrs or an active circuit, but either way there is additional circuitry involved, which is likely where the SQ changes anyway.
There were a few folks who used 1/2 of the balanced outputs as a SE feed but that in effect compromises the Jggy's balanced output which isn't designed to be used in that way.
IOW it also degrades the SQ if only slightly, which is what some note as the difference between the SE and balanced to begin with.
And really the SQ difference between the SE and Balanced outs, is really only going to be a 'problem' if your entire setup is dialed in to begin with.
Which means the major benefits of the Jggy are with the Jggy itself and not the differences between its output modes.
And while the picking of nits is a game we all play, the Jggy's advantage is greater than just a choice of it's outputs.
And besides this opens up a future upgrade path to look forward to.
hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Just my 2.5¢
JJ
gefski
1000+ Head-Fier
Well put, JJ. The logical “big picture” approach works.Using an external 'converter' will likely yield the same SQ as using the SE outputs, just because.
You could try using a pair of xfmrs or an active circuit, but either way there is additional circuitry involved, which is likely where the SQ changes anyway.
There were a few folks who used 1/2 of the balanced outputs as a SE feed but that in effect compromises the Jggy's balanced output which isn't designed to be used in that way.
IOW it also degrades the SQ if only slightly, which is what some note as the difference between the SE and balanced to begin with.
And really the SQ difference between the SE and Balanced outs, is really only going to be a 'problem' if your entire setup is dialed in to begin with.
Which means the major benefits of the Jggy are with the Jggy itself and not the differences between its output modes.
And while the picking of nits is a game we all play, the Jggy's advantage is greater than just a choice of it's outputs.
And besides this opens up a future upgrade path to look forward to.
hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Just my 2.5¢
JJ
Funny how if someone prefers balanced in their particular system (reasonable), it can get picked up as fact by others that Yggy’s SE outs are “broken” and need to be ”fixed”.
What is the objective difference between the two? Just that the XLR is balanced?
When testing between XLR and SE on my BF2, the biggest, audible difference is just the output level. I wonder if that's what most have reported with the Yggy as well?
When testing between XLR and SE on my BF2, the biggest, audible difference is just the output level. I wonder if that's what most have reported with the Yggy as well?
On Bifrost2 there is 2 DAC (1 per channel) chips, the balanced signal is created in the output stage. So makes sense on BF2 the only difference is the volume.
On Yggy there’s 4 DAC (2 per channel). So the signal created is inherently balanced. The SE output is a summed signal which in theory should sound the same but of course you’re going through more parts so there’s probably some minimal loss.
That said I have a Yggy on order. Plan to use the balanced outputs to a SS amp and the SE to a tube amp. I’m not losing any sleep over the difference.
I wouldn't have thought the SE outputs are gimped, only that they just use half of the DACs in there. Inverting and and summing the negative balanced signal might improve the sound (or degrade it, who knows!) I could be wrong though.
Great to hear that! I should probably just enjoy it for what it is first before fixing something I don't even have my hands on yetWell put, JJ. The logical “big picture” approach works.
Funny how if someone prefers balanced in their particular system (reasonable), it can get picked up as fact by others that Yggy’s SE outs are “broken” and need to be ”fixed”.
Does RCAs sum the signal? I was thinking that the RCAs just uses half the DAC - hence my question. I could be wrong though.
I think I may ask Mike to clarify on this topic during the next Livestream if I catch it lol
That would be amazing. Where does he livestream?
Yup, on the Yggdrasil specs page it says “Analog Stage: Fully discrete, DC coupled Class A FET buffers optimized for high current output and fully discrete, Class A FET summing stages for single-ended output”
johnjen
Headphoneus Supremus
Objectively, balanced is the signal that 4 separate dac chips can create.
A plus waveform and a minus waveform for both channels.
And yes there are many other configurations for both SE and Balanced outputs, but 4 dac chips is what the Jggy uses.
It can then be 'converted' to SE, by referencing the dynamic swing of plus to minus voltages, with respect to ground, which usually also cuts the max voltage output in half.
Note that a 'true' Balanced output is independent from and of ground, which means the actual signal isn't referenced to ground even though some figure they can use it that away.
The use of the XLR connector type is a definite step up (at least in my book) from the RCA connector which is a poorly designed quick and dirty connector to begin with.
XLR's are a professional design and meant to not fail nor degrade thru repeated usage, ie. they are well designed and well made connectors meant to always function properly.
Yes the balanced out is usually ≈twice the output voltage of a SE output and some might be 'influenced' by this situation (Louder Is Always Better).
But for those with 'sufficient' resolution for their ENTIRE audio system, there is a bit of degradation in SQ.
Is it a huge, big, medium, small, nonexistent, difference?
Yes it can be, for some in some cases given the immense variability of usage.
Only you will really know, one way or the other.
But for some (me for example) who eschew the use of RCA connectors, it means balanced is ALWAYS in the mix and the XLR connector is my primary choice for all connections, where possible.
Does that mean I won't use RCA connectors at all?
No, but it won't stay that way in my primary listening system for very long.
You might say I weaned myself off of the 'RCA is perfectly fine' bandwagon.
Fun Fact #28798566345875.76493874
The RCA connector made its debut as a service connection on early TV's so a technician could 'peer into' a certain portion of the TV's internal operating signals to see what was going on. So RCA designed the cheapest, flimsiest POS connector they could, knowing it might be used, say 12 times in its entire life…
In Pro Audio the saying goes, Never EVER trust an RCA connector, it will bite you where the sun don't shine.
So the downside of always running balanced is, 'true' balanced circuitry is usually more expensive because more parts are used and balanced circuitry entails additional engineering to 'do it right'.
And along with the benefits of the noise rejection which in most cases for our audio system needs is a relatively minor factor, it can, in some cases, save the day from RF and other forms of electrical and electronic noise and from some conditions where ground loops are a problem.
It should also be noted that you can run SE signals using XLR connectors quite easily with no downsides, well perhaps the wiring connections would be non-standard, but that's it.
Just some food for thought
JJ
gefski
1000+ Head-Fier
That’s great, patience is your friend. In addition to waiting for yours to ship, you’ve got a 2 to 3 week on time before Yggy is “on song”. Enjoy every day of it!!!I wouldn't have thought the SE outputs are gimped, only that they just use half of the DACs in there. Inverting and and summing the negative balanced signal might improve the sound (or degrade it, who knows!) I could be wrong though.
Great to hear that! I should probably just enjoy it for what it is first before fixing something I don't even have my hands on yet
Does RCAs sum the signal? I was thinking that the RCAs just uses half the DAC - hence my question. I could be wrong though.
That 2-3 week warm up time sounds crazy... is the improvement that noticeable? I’ll be using utopias so should be revealing.
Edit: how hot does it get? Could I just put it in the oven at 50 degreesC for a few hours?
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Yes, the improvement is very noticeable between initial boot up and the next few days. Less so from a week to 2 or 3 weeks, but still somewhat present.
No, some have tried speeding the process up, but reported that it didn't seem to help. It just takes about a week or so to reach equilibrium. Not a big deal if, like me, you just leave it always on.
It seems to be most apparent on brand new Yggys. Break-in seems to cut this warm-up time down a bit.
johnjen
Headphoneus Supremus
Even letting the Jggy cool down will take at least 1 day (and ofttimes more, depending) to return to optimum SQ.
ALL tweako audio gear has foibles of one sort or other, it comes with the territory.
Of course much of these SQ shifts may or may not be noticeable to any particular setup and listener.
YMMV
JJ
ALL tweako audio gear has foibles of one sort or other, it comes with the territory.
Of course much of these SQ shifts may or may not be noticeable to any particular setup and listener.
YMMV
JJ
ToTo Man
500+ Head-Fier
Regarding Yggy's outputs, it isn't just a case of the balanced output having better SNR than the SE output, the frequency response is also slightly different, or at least it is on my early A2 USB5 Yggy. The bass is slightly shelved down on the SE output. Before you suggest I'm imagining it, I'm not, I've measured it. The shelving begins at around 200Hz, is -0.3dB at 60Hz and reaches -0.6dB by 40Hz. It's very subtle, but it is noticeable if you A/B the two outputs in real time, the Balanced output has a bit more heft and solidity down below. I'd be interested to hear from other Yggy owners who've measured their units as I'm curious if this FR difference exists on all A2 USB5 models, or only the very earliest models...
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