[ScubaMan2017]

Does that adapter work with the Valhalla 1?

Re: Valhalla 2. My hunch would be yes -- provided one used a socket saver of some kind, to elevate the adapter above the Valhalla's chassis. Wait, are you referring to the Valhalla 1?! Uh oh. I thought the Jason's thread noted that the first generation of Valhalla wasn't rollable... [approximately paragraph 31... link here]

 

[Robert Padgett]

Re: Valhalla 2. My hunch would be yes -- provided one used a socket saver of some kind, to elevate the adapter above the Valhalla's chassis. Wait, are you referring to the Valhalla 1?! Uh oh. I thought Jason's thread noted that the first generation of Valhalla wasn't rollable... [approximately paragraph 31... link here]

I must not be a very good paragraph counter because I fail to see him saying it was not "rollable".

I have found that the effect of rolling 6SN7 (6H8C) tubes on the Valhalla 2 was less spectacular that rolling the same tube on the Vali 2.

The huge tubes towering over the 6N6P power tube, the wobbly nature of two stacked socket savers, and --quite frankly--the ugliness of the arrangement helped me to decide to follow Jason's recommendations.

He says that rolling the stock 6N1P driver tubes with other 6922,6DJ8,E88CC-type tubes will affect the sound quality.

No adapters to an Octal base or a wobbly tree of $2 socket-savers are mentioned and for good reason.

 

[ScubaMan2017]

I must not be a very good paragraph counter because I fail to see him saying it was not "rollable".

I have found that the effect of rolling 6SN7 (6H8C) tubes on the Valhalla 2 was less spectacular that rolling the same tube on the Vali 2.

The huge tubes towering over the 6N6P power tube, the wobbly nature of two stacked socket savers, and --quite frankly--the ugliness of the arrangement helped me to decide to follow Jason's recommendations.

He says that rolling the stock 6N1P driver tubes with other 6922,6DJ8,E88CC-type tubes will affect the sound quality.

No adapters to an Octal base or a wobbly tree of $2 socket-savers are mentioned and for good reason.

Yep. You're right. I scanned that entry. No mention of the Valhalla 1 being/not-being tube-rollable. Here's another post wrt the Valhalla...
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/valhalla-problems-someone-help.622412/page-6#post-8628653

{{{edit - btw, it's an interesting mini-thread. When the owner had more {?} time to answer user questions}}}

Plan C: drop a note to Schiit's help desk....

 

[Robert Padgett]

Yep. You're right. I scanned that entry. No mention of the Valhalla 1 being/not-being tube-rollable. Here's another post wrt the Valhalla...
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/valhalla-problems-someone-help.622412/page-6#post-8628653

Plan C: drop a note to Schiit's help desk....

One piece of advice given to me a few months ago...just because someone makes an adapter, doesn't mean it will work.
I take that to mean that adapters are a change from the basic designs of the amplifier.

Tube amps like the Valhalla are "voiced" by the engineer to produce a good quality sound with a given tube-type (6SN7 vs E88CC). In the case of Valhalla 2, Jason and Mike designed an amp that performs to their expectations, using the plentiful and relatively cheap 6N1P driver tube, because they had their reasons.

The Vali 2 ships with 6DJ8 or a 6BZ7, which is a drop-in for the 6N1P. This begs the question, if you are going to build two different tube amp, each using a Nine-pin type tube, why would you want two different types of the tube to stock, to make sure they don't get mixed up in shipping, etc.?
Only one reason, they like the 6N1P 'house sound' better than if they used the existing stock of Vali 2 tubes. I now own the Valhalla 2, and I choose to use 6DJ8 tubes in it because I like that sound.

I will never know if a pair of $500 rare Telefunken ECC88 sound better, I am sure they would sound different. I don't see many folks on the Valhalla tube rolling thread who have proudly proclaimed a 6SN7 tube makes the Valhalla 2 any better, which my own research validates.

I am fortunate to have a Vali 2, where those big boys play well (and I have a lifetime supply of variants to play 'tube-roller' with).
I am still curious about a pair of Old Stock British Mullard 12AT7 with the nine-pine adapters--only because others have said they are the 'bee's knees' in sound quality on the Valhalla 2.

 

[CRITICALSHOT]

One piece of advice given to me a few months ago...just because someone makes an adapter, doesn't mean it will work.
I take that to mean that adapters are a change from the basic designs of the amplifier.

Tube amps like the Valhalla are "voiced" by the engineer to produce a good quality sound with a given tube-type (6SN7 vs E88CC). In the case of Valhalla 2, Jason and Mike designed an amp that performs to their expectations, using the plentiful and relatively cheap 6N1P driver tube, because they had their reasons.

The Vali 2 ships with 6DJ8 or a 6BZ7, which is a drop-in for the 6N1P. This begs the question, if you are going to build two different tube amp, each using a Nine-pin type tube, why would you want two different types of the tube to stock, to make sure they don't get mixed up in shipping, etc.?
Only one reason, they like the 6N1P 'house sound' better than if they used the existing stock of Vali 2 tubes. I now own the Valhalla 2, and I choose to use 6DJ8 tubes in it because I like that sound.

I will never know if a pair of $500 rare Telefunken ECC88 sound better, I am sure they would sound different. I don't see many folks on the Valhalla tube rolling thread who have proudly proclaimed a 6SN7 tube makes the Valhalla 2 any better, which my own research validates.

I am fortunate to have a Vali 2, where those big boys play well (and I have a lifetime supply of variants to play 'tube-roller' with).
I am still curious about a pair of Old Stock British Mullard 12AT7 with the nine-pine adapters--only because others have said they are the 'bee's knees' in sound quality on the Valhalla 2.

I have a pair of RCA grey long plates for my Rogue Audio RH-5 on their way and after that a pair of Mullard UK made 12AU7 made for GE. I will do some more research as that was a damn elusive paragraph 31. Any and all help was appreciated!

 

[tricolor]

hey @Robert Padgett , folks!

One piece of advice given to me a few months ago...just because someone makes an adapter, doesn't mean it will work.
I take that to mean that adapters are a change from the basic designs of the amplifier.

(diet quote)

I am still curious about a pair of Old Stock British Mullard 12AT7 with the nine-pine adapters--only because others have said they are the 'bee's knees' in sound quality on the Valhalla 2.

Wonder if due to “military” specs, NOS are more likely to stand variations in terms of taking peaks and changes in current / voltage.... and not burn out like a light bulb... hence the in theory longer life?

mines are cv4024,( mullard 12at7’s) and i’m quite happy so far after a few days... especially with headphones, if feels like a bit warmer than the stock tubes... but not muddy at all.

cheers!

 

[Robert Padgett]

--snip--

{{{edit - btw, it's an interesting mini-thread. When the owner had more {?} time to answer user questions}}}

Plan C: drop a note to Schiit's help desk....

"About Schiit Audio
Founded in June 2010 by Jason Stoddard and Mike Moffat, Schiit has grown into a leader in the "personal audio" market, with a wide range of products spanning DACs, headphone amplifiers, and preamplifiers, from $49 to $2299. Schiit is also a leader in the direct sale of audio products."


Scuba, that was in 2012--when this thread first started, when Jason and Mike were just getting revved up. Almost eight years ago, when still a young company I am sure they had to be more responsive to things like spilled OJ and cat fur-balls.

Today, they are a global presence with new items being developed and production issues that neither Jason or Mike could have foreseen way back then.

Barack Obama was running for re-election, Donald Trump was a reality TV Star, and 4 GB of memory was sufficient for Ubuntu Linux 12.04 LTS...ancient history in Audio world.

 

[bokononista]

Hi guys!
I have a Valhalla 2 + Bifrost MB + Beyerdynamic T1.1 for some time and want to share some subjective tube rolling experience. In general I am happy with microdynamics, detail, smoothness and great holographic soundstage capability of Valhalla - It is something I miss with solid state amps and hybrid like Vali 2 I also have.

After some experience with tubes I found myself looking mostly for the best soundstage and natural sound. I am also looking for better dynamics and clarity of Vali 2.


6N1P, 6DJ8, 6922 family
Dynamic is little weak in comparsion with Vali 2. There is also little veil. This is my problem with this family of tubes.

Stock tubes (Novosibirsk):
It has great depth but the imaging is somewhat fuzzy and unfocused. Soundstage is very forward, like you are in the sound. It is like you are sitting in between the musicians. There is a lot of plankton. Bass is little less amount. Treble is ok, no sibilance with my T1.

Amperex Orange Globe 6DJ8 O-Getter
These tubes are the warmest of all tubes i have. Great detail, sharp imaging, great musicality. Only problem I hear is almost flat soundstage, width is good. Dynamics is better than with stock tubes. Good for rock music.

6N3/2C51/396A tubes with adapter:
This tube family has little forward mids, which is good fot T1 sound signature. Still lacks dynamics a little but better than 6DJ8.

GE JAN 5670W
Sounds very linear. Sibilant with T1.1! Sounds thin to me and boring. It is the worst pair for me. Soundstage is OK. Lacks dynamics a bit.

Tung-Sol 2C51 O-Getter 1961
These were the tubes to go without thinking most of the time. Very ballanced sound, very natural, musical. Soundstage has the most natural shape, depth with precise direction. Still lacks dynamic in comparsion to Vali2 but better than stock. Little forward mids and smooth treble is great for T1.1. Almost perfect for me. Great for jazz.

Western Electric 396A Square Getter 1960
Great imaging, not so much depth as Tung-sols, very smooth presentation, little forward mids and great quality. Great detail. Not so airy as Tung-sols. Still lacks dynamic in comparsion to Vali2. I found myself returning to Tung-Sols often even i thought WE396A are better.

Reflector 6N3P-E 1974
Very strong bass, great soundstage width and depth, airy, detailed with smooth treble. Great for T1. I found some music best with theese tubes like organ music, classical, but little off for rock music for example. Dont know why. Also dynamics is much better. No veil. Little sterile presentation. Very fast almost like solid state!

Then i jumped to the 6CG7 (no adapter needed)
Whole family has much better dynamics and clarity, same level as Vali 2, so theese tubes lift the veil of Valhalla. Tubes are also very linear. With T1, you get better bass, little recessed mids with T1.1 in comparsion with other families (just showing real sound signature of T1.1). Tubes have very big depth but little more narrow width of soundstage. It is like you sit in the 10th row or listen to the pair of speakers. I like it but it depends on everybody taste. Someone wrote about collapsed soundstage of 6CG7 family so it can be perceived differently. For me, this family is the best for Valhalla and I am happy i did try these tubes. I found much less diferences between tube brands - possibly because of linear sound signature of 6CG7 family.

Tung-Sol 6CG7 black plate
Fantastic with T1.1 - no sibilance but airy treble. Very realistic sound of acoustic records. I cant see any weak point except my wish for a little different soundstage shape. But soundstage is large with great holographic presentation and layering. Sound is clear, detailed, dynamic and exciting. Very musical. These are my default tubes now.

RCA black plate black top
Almost like Tung-Sols in all aspects, little more smooth, little less airy. Sometimes better for rock music.

Sylvania 6CG7 yellow text
The warmest of my 6CG7, like RCA but lacks excitement a little. Every aspect is little less than RCA and Tung-Sols.

Overall i found that for T1.1 brighter tubes are better than warm tubes. Warm tubes tames treble more but also take off an excitement a little. But there are brighter tubes with tamed treble but still airy. I found that brighter tubes keep the best of T1.1 - the great soundstage presentation. Typical example for me are both Tung-Sols (2C51 and 6CG7).

I also tried different power tubes, i bought FOTON 6N6P. I expected better sound (bass) or minor differences only. I have to say, that i was dissapointed. Stock power tubes I have are more transparent and have better bass. I think there is sure a difference between power tubes in sound quality, so there is a reason to try different.

 

[ScubaMan2017]

Those 6CG7 units intrigue me. I'm satisfied with my current configuration; however, I might pick up a pair of these to use on my Vali (single) or on my Valhalla 2 (as a replacement for the two 6N1P tubes). Meh, next year...

 

[bokononista]

Those 6CG7 units intrigue me. I'm satisfied with my current configuration; however, I might pick up a pair of these to use on my Vali (single) or on my Valhalla 2 (as a replacement for the two 6N1P tubes). Meh, next year...

How is the soundstage of your 6SN7 (did you try it on Valhalla?)? It should be very similar to 6CG7, so I am curious.

 

[Robert Padgett]

How is the soundstage of your 6SN7 (did you try it on Valhalla?)? It should be very similar to 6CG7, so I am curious.

I have been trying to get a pair of 1951 FOTON 6H8C valves to "break-in" on the Valhalla 2. In my humble opinion, backed by numerous trial and error rotations--The Valhalla doesn't play well with 6SN7 variants. On the Vali 2, yes, the soundstage is expanded and the sound quality is improved. On Valhalla 2, those results are not reliably reproduced.

And I really purchased those vintage Russian tubes for the Valhalla, so I was motivated to want them to sound good. I found "rolling" different 6SN7 tubes (Vintage US Made Tung-Sol, among them) not only did I not really hear much difference--when I put the stock 6N1P driver tubes back in, I was able to discern that the 6SN7 sounded "bloated" in the midrange, and did not have the resolution of nine-pin variants of the stock tube.

The other two house-keeping issues--It required two stacked, and quite wobbly socket-savers so the 6SN7 adapter would connect, and then those huge glass tubes towering over the power tubes were just Ugly.

The good news, I invested well under $75 on all my 6SN7 tubes, I have back-up socket-savers and 6SN7 adapters and I will use them on my Vali 2--where rolling seems to be best.

I have committed to nine-pin variants, on the Valhalla 2, trying to stay as close to stock as possible, as I think it sounds best. I have a sweet pair of 6DJ8, a Telefunken e88cc, and the stock tube for the Vali 2 and they sound about the same as the stock and 6DJ8 tubes, despite not being "matched".

That is my 2-cents worth-- Your Milage May Vary. If you want to try it for yourself, send me a PM, I think I can get you a couple of socket-savers, adapters, and 6SN7 tubes to play with.

 

[bokononista]

I have been trying to get a pair of 1951 FOTON 6H8C valves to "break-in" on the Valhalla 2. In my humble opinion, backed by numerous trial and error rotations--The Valhalla doesn't play well with 6SN7 variants. On the Vali 2, yes, the soundstage is expanded and the sound quality is improved. On Valhalla 2, those results are not reliably reproduced.

And I really purchased those vintage Russian tubes for the Valhalla, so I was motivated to want them to sound good. I found "rolling" different 6SN7 tubes (Vintage US Made Tung-Sol, among them) not only did I not really hear much difference--when I put the stock 6N1P driver tubes back in, I was able to discern that the 6SN7 sounded "bloated" in the midrange, and did not have the resolution of nine-pin variants of the stock tube.

The other two house-keeping issues--It required two stacked, and quite wobbly socket-savers so the 6SN7 adapter would connect, and then those huge glass tubes towering over the power tubes were just Ugly.

The good news, I invested well under $75 on all my 6SN7 tubes, I have back-up socket-savers and 6SN7 adapters and I will use them on my Vali 2--where rolling seems to be best.

I have committed to nine-pin variants, on the Valhalla 2, trying to stay as close to stock as possible, as I think it sounds best. I have a sweet pair of 6DJ8, a Telefunken e88cc, and the stock tube for the Vali 2 and they sound about the same as the stock and 6DJ8 tubes, despite not being "matched".

That is my 2-cents worth-- Your Milage May Vary. If you want to try it for yourself, send me a PM, I think I can get you a couple of socket-savers, adapters, and 6SN7 tubes to play with.

Interesting. I did not try 6SN7, but I have a different experience with 6CG7 in my Vali - it was little weird for me mostly because of soundstage. Not the case of Valhalla - I swap 6DJ8 with 6CG7 often and still have experience of overall sound quality rise of 6CG7 even in resolution. The mids i feel little recessed (less forward but with full detail) but i think it is the natural sound signature of T1.1. Maybe the experience with a different headphones vary a lot. But soundstage difference of the whole 6CG7 family is obvious.

The 6CG7 should be electrically similar to the 6SN7, but need no adapters and plugged in have the same height as power tubes, so looks very nice

 

[ScubaMan2017]

Hi guys!
I have a Valhalla 2 + Bifrost MB + Beyerdynamic T1.1 for some time and want to share some subjective tube rolling experience. In general I am happy with microdynamics, detail, smoothness and great holographic soundstage capability of Valhalla - It is something I miss with solid state amps and hybrid like Vali 2 I also have.

After some experience with tubes I found myself looking mostly for the best soundstage and natural sound. I am also looking for better dynamics and clarity of Vali 2.


6N1P, 6DJ8, 6922 family
Dynamic is little weak in comparsion with Vali 2. There is also little veil. This is my problem with this family of tubes.

Stock tubes (Novosibirsk):
It has great depth but the imaging is somewhat fuzzy and unfocused. Soundstage is very forward, like you are in the sound. It is like you are sitting in between the musicians. There is a lot of plankton. Bass is little less amount. Treble is ok, no sibilance with my T1.

Amperex Orange Globe 6DJ8 O-Getter
These tubes are the warmest of all tubes i have. Great detail, sharp imaging, great musicality. Only problem I hear is almost flat soundstage, width is good. Dynamics is better that with stock tubes. Good for rock music.



6N3/2C51/396A tubes with adapter:
This tube family has little forward mids, which is good fot T1 sound signature. Still lacks dynamics a little but better than 6DJ8.

GE JAN 5670W
Sounds very linear. Sibilant with T1.1! Sounds thin to me and boring. It is the worst pair for me. Soundstage is OK. Lacks dynamics a bit.



Tung-Sol 2C51 O-Getter 1961
These were the tubes to go without thinking most of the time. Very ballanced sound, very natural, musical. Soundstage has the most natural shape, depth with precise direction. Still lacks dynamic in comparsion to Vali2 but better than stock. Little forward mids and smooth treble is great for T1.1. Almost perfect for me. Great for jazz.



Western Electric 396A Square Getter 1960
Great imaging, not so much depth as Tung-sols, very smooth presentation, little forward mids and great quality. Great detail. Not so airy as Tung-sols. Still lacks dynamic in comparsion to Vali2. I found myself returning to Tung-Sols often even i thought WE396A are better.



Reflector 6N3P-E 1974
Very strong bass, great soundstage width and depth, airy, detailed with smooth treble. Great for T1. I found some music best with theesetubes like organ music, classical, but little off for rock music for example. Dont know why. Also dynamics is much better. No veil. Little sterile presentation.



Then i jumped to the 6CG7 (no adapter needed)
Whole family has much better dynamics and clarity, same level as Vali 2, so theese tubes lift the veil of Valhalla. Tubes are also very linear. With T1, you get better bass, little recessed mids with T1.1 in comparsion with other families (just showing real sound signature of T1.1). Tubes have very big depth but little more narrow width of soundstage. It is like you sit in the 10th row or listen to the pair of speakers. I like it but it depends on everybody taste. Someone wrote about collapsed soundstage of 6CG7 family so it can be perceived differently. For me, this family is the best for Valhalla and I am happy i did try these tubes. I found much less diferences between tube brands - possibly because of linear sound signature of 6CG7 family.

Tung-Sol 6CG7 black plate
Fantastic with T1.1 - no sibilance but airy treble. Very realistic sound of acoustic records. I cant see any weak point except my wish for a little different soundstage shape. But soundstage is large with great holographic presentation and layering. Sound is clear, detailed, dynamic and exciting. Very musical. These are my default tubes now.



RCA black plate black top
Almost like Tung-Sols in all aspects, little more smooth, little less airy. Sometimes better for rock music.



Sylvania 6CG7 yellow text
The warmest of my 6CG7, like RCA but lacks excitement a little. Every aspect is little less than RCA and Tung-Sols.



Overall i found that for T1.1 brighter tubes are better than warm tubes. Warm tubes tames treble more but also take off an excitement a little. But there are brighter tubes with tamed treble but still airy. I found that brighter tubes keep the best of T1.1, the great soundstage presentation. Typical example for me are both Tung-Sols (2C51 and 6CG7).

I also tried different power tubes, i bought FOTON 6N6P. I expected better sound (bass) or minor differences only. I have to say, that i was dissapointed. Stock power tubes I have are more transparent and have better bass. I think there is sure a difference between power tubes in sound quality, so there is a reason to try different.

Crimme. This was a NICE post. Those photos were fun to examine, eh. Re: rolling non-6N1P tubes into my Valhalla 2. Nope, not for me. I use all the weird and wonderful adapters for my Vali2. I might elevate the Valhalla tubes with socket savers for better (?) cooling... or at least to get a better view of those incandescent orbs.

 

[bokononista]

Crimme. This was a NICE post. Those photos were fun to examine, eh. Re: rolling non-6N1P tubes into my Valhalla 2. Nope, not for me. I use all the weird and wonderful adapters for my Vali2. I might elevate the Valhalla tubes with socket savers for better (?) cooling... or at least to get a better view of those incandescent orbs.

Thanks! Socket savers will sure help with tubes cooling. Personally i do not use socket savers for power tubes because it looks silly(too long) . Socket savers raise front tubes to the level of power tubes, so looks good. Only problem i have is that i ordered those savers from China via Ebay (black ones) and those do not have enough grip, so when i try to pull tubes out, socket saver mostly remains in the Valhalla and it is hard to get it out .... No problem with adapters for 6N3 tubes.

 

[Robert Padgett]

Crimme. This was a NICE post. Those photos were fun to examine, eh. Re: rolling non-6N1P tubes into my Valhalla 2. Nope, not for me. I use all the weird and wonderful adapters for my Vali2. I might elevate the Valhalla tubes with socket savers for better (?) cooling... or at least to get a better view of those incandescent orbs.

Scubaman--From my experience, you are on the right track.
One tip that helps with stability, should you "stack" two socket-savers in the VH2, you may want to mate the two socket savers with electrical tape before inserting them to make a single, double sized unit--which may stabilize the pair better, and eliminate some wobbliness.
Nine-pine variants afford a wide variety of choices for rolling, but if you like the stock tube sound (which I do) you need not seek further.

With only one socket-saver per tube, the top is barely warm to the touch, and I think two socket-savers is overkill.

And, when designing the Valhalla, Jason could have chosen "taller" sockets for the tubes, elevating them from the PCB, but since that was not his design, I am questioning the logic of trying to make 6SN7 tubes work on the Valhalla, requiring two socket-savers and an adapter--for not-really improved sonic quality.