[IEMCrazy]

Quote:

 
Things I love, when my fellow Americans call a black person from somewhere not America and African American.

 
I'm unfamiliar with that particular musical endeavor (or any other of Kanye West's musical masterwerkes

) But I highly suspect that the title is a play on George Gershwin's American in Paris which told the story of an American's visit to France (specifically, his...)  I'm assuming Mr. West's odyssey takes us through the narrative of a particular persuasion of American's also visiting France in modern times, perhaps himself, rather than a tale woven about a particular persuasion of Parisians.  Or some Schiit...
 
Quote:

 
Wonderful information. Thanks for the detailed response. I actually had considered the Lyr + Gungnir combo as well. The Mjolnir just looks so tempting, though. Decisions, decisions... 
 
I think one other big influence is that the Mjolnir would limit me to balanced setups, were the Lyr would give more more flexibility to start.

 
That's very true.  I suppose in theory if one needed hardwired SE headphones one could set up a DI box for the outputs...but if you're going to respond for that, might as well reterminate the headphones....
 
Quote:

The Gungnir is a clear step above the Bifrost. Meaning, you'll hear the difference immediately, without effort.
 
IME, on other sources, it can be more difficult to hear differences. It's not that you need professional ears,
but having more experience with different gear will always lend a helping hand in discerning differences more easily.

 
Really?  Because I did some careful A/Bing of WDS-1 and Bifrost to identify the differences I found.  In fact they both sounded rather similar until you really compare the details.  Once you get into A/B-ing you can see where some recordings might have an immediate difference though.  Namely, the slighty overdone midbass on the Bifrost, and the lack of subbass extension.  Also trumpet blasts are a little off on Bifrost.  So things like that, I'd agree, there can be an immediate difference.
 
However I'd also suggest the main difference in my comparison was the enhanced stereo separation, which I presume the Gungnir also has.  There's more crosstalk in he Bifrost, which does change the overall presentation, but if you're applying your own crosstalk in processing, that difference is less significant (meaning the ultimate result is applying more of your own crosstalk, and the subsequent improved clarity as a result of the crosstalk being properly controlled and EQ'd rather than just overbleed between channels.)
 
Assuming we can assume Gungnir and WDS-1 are similar in performance (which would be a huge win for Gungnir at the comparative price points, though with some difference in features), it all adds up to a clearer DAC with better linearity across the entire frequency spectrum and smoother/faster transients.  And that makes it definitely worthwhile for someone looking at HD800, HE-6, even HD650, perhaps not as important with many other headphones. But I wouldn't veer quite as far as "immediate and effortless" difference.  I know what you mean and it can be immediate, but I think putting it in those terms isn't far off from saying "Monoblocks sound so much better with HE-6!"

 
Quote:

Unfortunately I have never have the privilege of listening to any of Schiit's equipment. Quite the issue. If I go with something like the Lyr + Bifrost I know ill wish i had upgraded. The other way around with the MJ + Gungnir I know ill have a feeling of buyer's remorse. Id love to try all for but Id prefer to stay married after this.

The more I seem to research Schiit gear and the HD800s, the more I come across posts stating that the HD800's love tubes which keeps bringing me back to the Lyr.
Do you notice any issues/differences running a half balanced setup? I have never used balanced gear before and was always under the impression that you generally wanted to match your Dac/Amp as unbalanced or balanced.

 
True enough, but you'll also find posts saying that Lyr holds back HD800...Olor1n being one of the first that comes to mind though, so his opinion on the difference is significant.  On the other hand, Olor1n's dislike of Lyr with HD800 had me expecting the worst, and I was rather surprised with how excellent it sounds with some warm tubes on Lyr, and how much raw detail havesting still occurred even when comparing it to HE-6 on a much nicer amp. I am planning to get Mjolnir for HD800, but it's easy to understate how good Lyr is too.  My biggest gripe about Lyr with HD800 is just that Lyr can be noisy, it's pretty high gain and tubes are anything but quiet.  There's a slightly higher noise floor than I'm used to with HE-6 on a big SS power amp, or Lyr with almost anything else.  Not D5k bad with that kind of impedance, but just a subtle quiet hiss (all from the tubes, of course, so tube changes could change that.)
 
I wouldn't worry too much about balanced/unbalanced etc.  The whole "balanced" thing is dramatically overstated for what it really is.  There are advantages but I think there's too much handwringing over the whole thing.  Yeah, Jason's making a big thing of it (shame, shame) in the marketing pages of MJ, but ultimately, a good amp is a good amp, SE, Bal or otherwise.  I do, however, prefer balanced cabling for the noise rejection properties and signal levels.  Purrin has pointed out that the balanced ins on the MJ are better than the unbal, or at least different, but we're probably splitting hairs.  AFAIK it's basically an internal DI box to convert it, so it's balanced after the inputs anyway, if that still makes you happy

  I'm sure there are advantages to running balanced straight into the MJ, both from being balanced, and skipping a DI stage. But bal/unbal is not the thing that would make me buy a different source rather than the general analog stage improvement of the source.  I.E. The WDS-1 bested the Bifrost both on the balanced outputs to my 7025 and the unbalanced outputs to my 7025.  The balanced may be a touch better for a variety of reasons on both ends, but ultimately bal/unbal will be more similar than different, but the analog sage of two different DACs will probably not be

 
Quote:

To all you guys on the fence - go the Gungnir/Mjolnir combo if you can. I know the Bifrost/Lyr combo very well. I lived with it for some time and went through the trials of tube rolling. I know what the Lyr sounds like at its best, when you get the tube choice right for a particular headphone and the synergy perfectly matches your preferences. I ran the HD650 (with Orange Globes), LCD-2 (Lorenz Stuttgarts), and HD800 (Bugle Boys) from this system to great effect. I doubted the mid-tiers would be such a significant upgrade but I pulled the trigger anyway.
 
All the flowery accolades for the Mjolnir can be found in its dedicated thread, but in case you haven't ventured there, I'll sum it up: No amount of tube rolling will elevate the Lyr close to the level of refinement and transparency the Mjolnir affords the top tier headphones. It's no contest. The Lyr is still pretty good value but you can bridge the gap in price between it and the Mjolnir when you factor the expense of rolling tubes. Granted, there's still the added expense of converting to a fully balanced system, but ask some of the regulars here how much they've spent on tubes...
 
The most significant upgrade I've made to my chain of late has undoubtedly been the Gungnir. Not sure to what extent the Lyr would stifle its strengths over the Bifrost, but with the Mjolnir in place, all the good stuff gets to the transducer unhindered and it's a great joy. No doubt there are better performers, and I'd be lying if I stated the NAD M51 held no appeal, but when you've come from the Bifrost, instant gratification is the reward. The difference is not subtle.

 
The Voice of HD800 + Schiit has spoken!

 
Quote:

Excellent post Olor,your another one pushing my fingers to the buy button.
Question:-In your opinion,will I see any difference in driving the He-6's,after I get the Gungnir
It seems from what I've read,one compliments the other ,for best results,as Para has said above.
 
Whats your take?
 
Any further info will be appreciated,
Mike

 
If you give it a week, or two, or three....I may be able to provide insight on that question as well, though Para's input is certainly credible!

  What are you driving the 6's on now?
 
I reread that.  Gungnir.  My take from the WDS-1, not Gungnir, but the point is, an upgrade over Bifrost, is yes, the HE-6 benefits significantly from the improved source.  IMO there's only a handful of headphones that actually would benefit significantly from it.  ...there's not a huge host of cans that benefit from that kind of ultra-detail improvement, basically flagships and former flagships.

 

[DougofTheAbaci]

Quote:

 
I'm unfamiliar with that particular musical endeavor (or any other of Kanye West's musical masterwerkes

) But I highly suspect that the title is a play on George Gershwin's American in Paris which told the story of an American's visit to France (specifically, his...)  I'm assuming Mr. West's odyssey takes us through the narrative of a particular persuasion of American's also visiting France in modern times, perhaps himself, rather than a tale woven about a particular persuasion of Parisians.  Or some Schiit...

 
I got the reference. It was later used as inspiration for Sting's "An Englishman In New York". I was merely commenting on the number of times when I lived in London that other American students would desperately not want to say someone was black so they'd say they were African American.
 

 

[paradoxper]

Quote:

Really?  Because I did some careful A/Bing of WDS-1 and Bifrost to identify the differences I found.  In fact they both sounded rather similar until you really compare the details.  Once you get into A/B-ing you can see where some recordings might have an immediate difference though.  Namely, the slighty overdone midbass on the Bifrost, and the lack of subbass extension.  Also trumpet blasts are a little off on Bifrost.  So things like that, I'd agree, there can be an immediate difference.
 
Assuming we can assume Gungnir and WDS-1 are similar in performance (which would be a huge win for Gungnir at the comparative price points, though with some difference in features), it all adds up to a clearer DAC with better linearity across the entire frequency spectrum and smoother/faster transients.  And that makes it definitely worthwhile for someone looking at HD800, HE-6, even HD650, perhaps not as important with many other headphones. But I wouldn't veer quite as far as "immediate and effortless" difference.  I know what you mean and it can be immediate, but I think putting it in those terms isn't far off from saying "Monoblocks sound so much better with HE-6!"

 
 

I'd have to say yes, really. Now yea, the Bifrost and Gungnir hold similar sound tonally. However, such things as details
(which I certanily was alluding to) are definitely immediate and apparent. But not on some recording, rather, all recordings.
This is where the whole "difference is immediate, without effort" comes into play.
 
The Bifrost IMO, comes off as harsh now, as well as lacking the quality of bass Gungnir provides.
There's just a complete layer of smoothness to Gungnir that Bifrost simply doesn't have.
 
I don't mean it to be in such terms as hyperbole, but this is the way it comes across. I hope there's no confusion as to 
my comment about the differentials. Because yes, they sound the same tonally. It's not better, nor different,
they're quite similar in that regard. But everything else does jump out at you with Gungnir comparative to Bifrost.

 

[IEMCrazy]

Quote:

I'd have to say yes, really. Now yea, the Bifrost and Gungnir hold similar sound tonally. However, such things as details
(which I certanily was alluding to) are definitely immediate and apparent. But not on some recording, rather, all recordings.
This is where the whole "difference is immediate, without effort" comes into play.
 
The Bifrost IMO, comes off as harsh now, as well as lacking the quality of bass Gungnir provides.
There's just a complete layer of smoothness to Gungnir that Bifrost simply doesn't have.
 
I don't mean it to be in such terms as hyperbole, but this is the way it comes across. I hope there's no confusion as to 
my comment about the differentials. Because yes, they sound the same tonally. It's not better, nor different,
they're quite similar in that regard. But everything else does jump out at you with Gungnir comparative to Bifrost.

 
In contrast to better DACs, I agree, Bifrost is slightly less detailed, though not in a radical way.  I agree it can seem harsh in contrast, specifically with the low-treble range.  And it definitively is lacking in the subbass department, which is it's primary weakness.  "Smoothness", yes, Bifrost can be slightly more "snappy" in its transients than is ideal.
 
Since my comparison was not to Gungnir, I certainly can't get into specifics of that comparison, but I still say, while the things you're saying are true in general, others should heed the words with caution as these are very subtle type differences overall.  Worth the money, yes, but subtle to the point that in blind A/B comparison, it does require some close listening (or listening to the right material that hits on the weaknesses of the Bifrost) to really pull the specifics of the differences beyond the overtly wider stereo separation that and the clearer tone.  Bifrost is an exceptional performer for the money, but it does indeed have its flaws revealed when compared to its betters. 

 

[paradoxper]

Quote:

 
In contrast to better DACs, I agree, Bifrost is slightly less detailed, though not in a radical way.  I agree it can seem harsh in contrast, specifically with the low-treble range.  And it definitively is lacking in the subbass department, which is it's primary weakness.  "Smoothness", yes, Bifrost can be slightly more "snappy" in its transients than is ideal.
 
Since my comparison was not to Gungnir, I certainly can't get into specifics of that comparison, but I still say, while the things you're saying are true in general, others should heed the words with caution as these are very subtle type differences overall.  Worth the money, yes, but subtle to the point that in blind A/B comparison, it does require some close listening (or listening to the right material that hits on the weaknesses of the Bifrost) to really pull the specifics of the differences beyond the overtly wider stereo separation that and the clearer tone.  Bifrost is an exceptional performer for the money, but it does indeed have its flaws revealed when compared to its betters. 

Agreed.
 
I have to disagree, though unreliable, unless under extreme controlled conditions. I believe you could A/B the Bifrost and Gungnir
and be able to differentiate 'em quite easily. Now I don't subscribe to objective data, other then out of curiosity. 
Sticking to subjective experience is all I care about. So YMMV, of course. 
 
The Bifrost is by no means anything other than very good. And as you said "An exceptional performer for the money".
But yea, compared to others it's flawed.

 

[olor1n]

Quote:

[...]
 
Quote:

The Gungnir is a clear step above the Bifrost. Meaning, you'll hear the difference immediately, without effort.
 
IME, on other sources, it can be more difficult to hear differences. It's not that you need professional ears,
but having more experience with different gear will always lend a helping hand in discerning differences more easily.

 
Really?  Because I did some careful A/Bing of WDS-1 and Bifrost to identify the differences I found.  In fact they both sounded rather similar until you really compare the details.  Once you get into A/B-ing you can see where some recordings might have an immediate difference though.  Namely, the slighty overdone midbass on the Bifrost, and the lack of subbass extension.  Also trumpet blasts are a little off on Bifrost.  So things like that, I'd agree, there can be an immediate difference.
 
However I'd also suggest the main difference in my comparison was the enhanced stereo separation, which I presume the Gungnir also has.  There's more crosstalk in he Bifrost, which does change the overall presentation, but if you're applying your own crosstalk in processing, that difference is less significant (meaning the ultimate result is applying more of your own crosstalk, and the subsequent improved clarity as a result of the crosstalk being properly controlled and EQ'd rather than just overbleed between channels.)
 
Assuming we can assume Gungnir and WDS-1 are similar in performance (which would be a huge win for Gungnir at the comparative price points, though with some difference in features), it all adds up to a clearer DAC with better linearity across the entire frequency spectrum and smoother/faster transients.  And that makes it definitely worthwhile for someone looking at HD800, HE-6, even HD650, perhaps not as important with many other headphones. But I wouldn't veer quite as far as "immediate and effortless" difference.  I know what you mean and it can be immediate, but I think putting it in those terms isn't far off from saying "Monoblocks sound so much better with HE-6!"

 
The difference between the Bifrost and Gungnir is not subtle in my system. You do describe some of the qualities the Gungnir excels at over the Bifrost but you do seem to be downplaying the divide. I don't apply DSP or EQ though to bridge the gap artificially. Perhaps the amps you have in place between your dac and headphones are stifling the performance of your Woo dac, levelling the playing field against the Bifrost? Or maybe the Woo isn't as clear an improvement over the Bifrost as the Gungnir? I try to refrain from commenting on gear I've not heard, but considering the impunity with which you speculate on gear you've not heard, I'll pay you the same courtesy. I'll even use a smily to counteract the "snarky-ness" (I made that word up) - 

 
Quote:

Unfortunately I have never have the privilege of listening to any of Schiit's equipment. Quite the issue. If I go with something like the Lyr + Bifrost I know ill wish i had upgraded. The other way around with the MJ + Gungnir I know ill have a feeling of buyer's remorse. Id love to try all for but Id prefer to stay married after this.

The more I seem to research Schiit gear and the HD800s, the more I come across posts stating that the HD800's love tubes which keeps bringing me back to the Lyr.
Do you notice any issues/differences running a half balanced setup? I have never used balanced gear before and was always under the impression that you generally wanted to match your Dac/Amp as unbalanced or balanced.

 
True enough, but you'll also find posts saying that Lyr holds back HD800...Olor1n being one of the first that comes to mind though, so his opinion on the difference is significant.  On the other hand, Olor1n's dislike of Lyr with HD800 had me expecting the worst, and I was rather surprised with how excellent it sounds with some warm tubes on Lyr, and how much raw detail havesting still occurred even when comparing it to HE-6 on a much nicer amp. I am planning to get Mjolnir for HD800, but it's easy to understate how good Lyr is too.  My biggest gripe about Lyr with HD800 is just that Lyr can be noisy, it's pretty high gain and tubes are anything but quiet.  There's a slightly higher noise floor than I'm used to with HE-6 on a big SS power amp, or Lyr with almost anything else.  Not D5k bad with that kind of impedance, but just a subtle quiet hiss (all from the tubes, of course, so tube changes could change that.)
 
I don't think I've ever commented that I disliked the Lyr/HD800 pairing. I may have outlined some disappointment with certain tubes, but I have consistently praised the synergy with Amperex Bugle Boys. I have also consistently stated how much "better" the Mjolnir is over the Lyr (even at its best with the right tubes tweaked to preference), so perhaps that's where the misunderstanding stems from. Praising one component over another doesn't necessarily mean the lesser component is a bad one inherently, though it may come across as such if not stated in no uncertain terms. I'll be sure to apply the usual caveats in future for people that are predisposed to jumping to conclusions. 

 
[...]
 
Quote:

To all you guys on the fence - go the Gungnir/Mjolnir combo if you can. I know the Bifrost/Lyr combo very well. I lived with it for some time and went through the trials of tube rolling. I know what the Lyr sounds like at its best, when you get the tube choice right for a particular headphone and the synergy perfectly matches your preferences. I ran the HD650 (with Orange Globes), LCD-2 (Lorenz Stuttgarts), and HD800 (Bugle Boys) from this system to great effect. I doubted the mid-tiers would be such a significant upgrade but I pulled the trigger anyway.
 
All the flowery accolades for the Mjolnir can be found in its dedicated thread, but in case you haven't ventured there, I'll sum it up: No amount of tube rolling will elevate the Lyr close to the level of refinement and transparency the Mjolnir affords the top tier headphones. It's no contest. The Lyr is still pretty good value but you can bridge the gap in price between it and the Mjolnir when you factor the expense of rolling tubes. Granted, there's still the added expense of converting to a fully balanced system, but ask some of the regulars here how much they've spent on tubes...
 
The most significant upgrade I've made to my chain of late has undoubtedly been the Gungnir. Not sure to what extent the Lyr would stifle its strengths over the Bifrost, but with the Mjolnir in place, all the good stuff gets to the transducer unhindered and it's a great joy. No doubt there are better performers, and I'd be lying if I stated the NAD M51 held no appeal, but when you've come from the Bifrost, instant gratification is the reward. The difference is not subtle.

 
The Voice of HD800 + Schiit has spoken!

 
My views are consistent with those who've actually heard and spent time with this particular chain (e.g. Maxvla, scootermafia, and others). I may be more vocal, but it's only to counteract the speculation from contrarians speculating on things they've not had direct experience with. 

 
[...]

 

[Y2HBK]

A big thanks to everyone so far that has contributed in response to my posts. I think I am going to go the route of the MJ + Gungnir combo, albeit it will take a bit longer so I can save up a bit more cash.
 
Now I need to figure out reterminating the cables on the HD800 (or forking out cash for ones from Lawton or Moon Audio maybe...) - I'm not exactly what you would call the most handy when it comes to those types of things. 

 

[paradoxper]

Quote:

A big thanks to everyone so far that has contributed in response to my posts. I think I am going to go the route of the MJ + Gungnir combo, albeit it will take a bit longer so I can save up a bit more cash.
 
Now I need to figure out reterminating the cables on the HD800 (or forking out cash for ones from Lawton or Moon Audio maybe...) - I'm not exactly what you would call the most handy when it comes to those types of things. 

Depending on if you think cables matter a little tiny bit, or at all. Brian @ BTG-Audio has some nice prices on cables. Or you could send your current cables into him
for re-termination for a very fair price.

 

[Y2HBK]

Quote:

Depending on if you think cables matter a little tiny bit, or at all. Brian @ BTG-Audio has some nice prices on cables. Or you could send your current cables into him
for re-termination for a very fair price.

 
Great info, ill check him out. Thanks!!

 

[paradoxper]

Quote:

 
Great info, ill check him out. Thanks!!

No problem. 

 

[RushNerd]

lol, balanced amps, no thanks. 
 
I searched the thread some but was unable to find what I was looking for: What are some of the favorite tubes for lyr owners with the HE-400's? 
 
I realize the 400's are probably not the most popular heapdhone for the lyr, but the combo is nothing short of astounding. I would love to get the most out of the combo with the best tubes possible.

 

[Y2HBK]

lol, balanced amps, no thanks. 

A plethora of useful information.

 

[Kojaku]

Picked up a pair 1968 Tesla E88CC gold pins. Super excited. I hope they sound good xS...
 
Kojaku

 

[abs1nthe]

Quote:

 
I searched the thread some but was unable to find what I was looking for: What are some of the favorite tubes for lyr owners with the HE-400's? 
 
I realize the 400's are probably not the most popular heapdhone for the lyr, but the combo is nothing short of astounding. I would love to get the most out of the combo with the best tubes possible.

 
I'm listening to Genalex - Gold Lions now with HE-400.  Very quiet background.  Beautiful and warm.  I think the best thing I can say is that these tubes make mediocre recordings sound rich.  I just listened to a 1942 version of Beethoven's 9th and enjoyed it immensely.  When I tried to play the same music on my speakers, detail, warmth, and punch were all missing.
 
I have the new Norah Jones playing right now.  I can hear the cracks in her voice, but the tubes envelope her mistakes into the music landscape rather than a protruding imperfection.  The bass extension with these tubes are a bit better than the GE tubes I used last week.  But, I'm pretty sure something I'm missing really low end bass (eg. when I'm listening to B-Tribe's "Fiesta Fatale" or Depeche Mode's Bass Bomb version of "It's No Good"). I also don't like live versions of country music recorded in large halls with these tubes.  They tubes roll all the ambient sound into the music too much.  Maybe it's just me.  I've only been playing with headphones for a couple weeks now.
 
Okay, to end on a good note, some music I really like with these tubes and why:
 

1. Maria Dolores Pradera - All her music is great.  Guitars are so alive with these tubes and the HE-400
2. Pink Martini - Separation of voice and instruments is a huge plus for me. Plus the detail makes it sound like I'm listening to a room with great speakers rather than headphones.
3. *Johnny Cash - "Hurt."  Johnny Cash's voice sounds like it's in the base of your skull and the guitar sounds like it's trying to claw its way into your head to join his voice... Amazing.
4. Bebo & Cigala - "Lagrimas Negra" The beginning piano strikes sound live. And his voice sounds like you're in a hazy club listening to an old master at the very end of his greatness.
5. *DJ Disse - "Taxi to War" on the Hotel Costes 10 CD - Holy cow, the separation in the sounds is all there, but the tubes give it a nice warmth and make the sounds music rather than noise.
6. Eminem - "Cleaning Out My Closet" - never liked this song. These tubes make Eminem sound grown up though and now it all works for me.
7. *Erasure - "Sono Luminus" - It's like these tubes were made for Erasure.  Some of the raggedy edges of the treble disappear and artificial sounds become more musical.
8. *Schola Antiqua - The monks sound like they're singing in an old church with their voices warming the room. shockingly good tubes for chants--preferable to listening on speakers
9. *The Airborne Toxic Event - "All For Woman" - soulful, sad, and sexual.  Never noticed the woman's voice before these tubes and the HE400.
10. Notorious B.I.G. - "Hypnotize" - fast bass, clear vocals and separation makes up for missing sub-bass.  
11. *Furwangler's 1942 version of Beethoven's 9th - Holy cow.  The recording sounds halfway decent with this combo of headphone, Lyr, and tubes.  Because it's halfway decent, it lets you enjoy just how great this recording really is.   Never been so moved by a recording.

 
* These are the ones where I felt like I enjoyed the recordings more than ever before.
 
Huan

 

[IEMCrazy]

Quote:

The difference between the Bifrost and Gungnir is not subtle in my system. You do describe some of the qualities the Gungnir excels at over the Bifrost but you do seem to be downplaying the divide. I don't apply DSP or EQ though to bridge the gap artificially. Perhaps the amps you have in place between your dac and headphones are stifling the performance of your Woo dac, levelling the playing field against the Bifrost? Or maybe the Woo isn't as clear an improvement over the Bifrost as the Gungnir? I try to refrain from commenting on gear I've not heard, but considering the impunity with which you speculate on gear you've not heard, I'll pay you the same courtesy. I'll even use a smily to counteract the "snarky-ness" (I made that word up) - 

 
For clarity I wasn't attempting to comment specifically on the Gungnir so much as "Bifrost versus higher end DACs" in general.  And ultimately the Bifrost is indeed excellent which is ultimately the point.  Yes, it has weaknesses, yes those weaknesses can be revealed when compared against better DACs, and I would certainly recommend spending the difference to upgrade for someone using flagship headphones.  But my point was to add some balance to paradox's comment that could easily be read along with a lot of other hyberbole on head-fi as sounding like more than it really is.  Those of us who have compared the differences ourselves know what paradox is talking about, and know in our scale of "different" what "subtle" means and doesn't mean in the comparison.  But someone who has not done such a comparison could easily read more into it.  Yes there are differences in DACs, yes Bifrost has flaws, but the fact is there's only so much "better" that can be gleaned out of a DAC and the Bifrost comes out of the gate swinging very, very hard at a very modest price.  Yes, "better" but someone unfamiliar with the kinds of differences being discussed that's stumbling on this thread needs a bucket of ice water interjected over the exaggerations an over the top description can provide.

  (Additional background I have a very long PM chain with Paradox discussing various other hyperboles that annoy both of us on head-fi, which was part of the inspiration for making sure to correct his own brush with hyperbole 

  Yes, I'm downplaying the difference somewhat because while it's different, the Bifrost is sufficiently excellent, even with HD800, and someone without their own comparison may picture a far greater divide than what really is from the language being used.  Much like the advice I originally got about how horrible HE-6 and Lyr are.  Which I discovered on my own was hyperbole, and it actually sounds fantastic. I understand from upgrading why that advice was given, but the hyperbole was overextended and nearly changed my purchasing decision based on soemwhat overblown reaction to definitite limitations.  I wasn't doing a contrast and review between two DACs strengths and weaknesses, but rather offering a more grounded contrast to a description that, IMO, could paint a bolder image than what is.
 
One thing for me personally, is that the wider stereo separation, which is what one of the big pushes in "balanced headphone gear" is all about, is, to me, annoying.  I'd go nuts without my DSP to narrow the stereo image and provide some crossfeed.  Somewhat true on the somewhat crosstalk prone Bifrost, and extremely so on the seemingly crosstalk-immune Woo (and presumably Gungnir.)  Somewhat great for speakers, for my ears, not so great for headphones.  It makes me understand why Tyll stuck the crossfeed circuit on the early Headroom models.  It was annoying on the Micro but I bet it was rather useful on the Max.  That's to the side of the conversation, but it's one thing to note about my listening, and a note that one of the more dramatic changes of moving up the ladder is, to me not an immediately good one for headphones, but can be made into a good one depending on how you use it.
 
Quote:

 
I don't think I've ever commented that I disliked the Lyr/HD800 pairing. I may have outlined some disappointment with certain tubes, but I have consistently praised the synergy with Amperex Bugle Boys. I have also consistently stated how much "better" the Mjolnir is over the Lyr (even at its best with the right tubes tweaked to preference), so perhaps that's where the misunderstanding stems from. Praising one component over another doesn't necessarily mean the lesser component is a bad one inherently, though it may come across as such if not stated in no uncertain terms. I'll be sure to apply the usual caveats in future for people that are predisposed to jumping to conclusions. 

 
You know, when I said "dislike" I read it and thought "that word will be misinterpereted"...and then I was lazy and didn't feel like correcting it. 

  No, I realize you don't dislike it.  My point was that you knew from the beginning Lyr was holding back HD800's potential and confirmed it when you got Mjolnir.  No need to apply more caveats, I knew your position correctly from the beginning and watched your transition from Lyr to MJ.  I just chose a bad word here to relate it

 
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My views are consistent with those who've actually heard and spent time with this particular chain (e.g. Maxvla, scootermafia, and others). I may be more vocal, but it's only to counteract the speculation from contrarians speculating on things they've not had direct experience with. 

 
I wasn't being sarcastic, I was acknowledging you as the most knowledgable of those experienced with that particular transition, and thus yours was a solid statement to rely on. Who's speculating now?