[Plautus001]

Nope. Hard nope.

To forestall the inevitable fight: Class D may be for others, but it is not for us. It is that simple. If you want/like Class D, there are plenty of other products out there.

This is entirely akin to:

MQA may be for others, but it is not for us. It is that simple. If you want MQA, there are plenty of other products out there.

Gasoline-powered cars may be for others, but they are not for us. It is that simple. If you want gas-powered cars, there are plenty of other products out there.

Clear?

But I still like gas powered cars.

Not a fan of MQA artifacts.

To quote an ex boss Class D sounds like, "running shoes in a dryer".

 

[macdonjh]

Absolutely, for the most part people are kind to others. If I see a topic that does not interest me one will soon roll around that might.

If I may transgress into music for the moment, over the weekend I went back through some of the Austin City Limits episodes and started listening to more and more Texas Swing. Asleep at the Wheel has made like 800 appearances so I assume they are like a house band. I ran some of their music through a headphone system and the sound stage on their recorded albums was incredible as were the musicians.



Ok let the hating begin but I like it lol.

Asleep at the Wheel have been fixtures in TX for as long as I've been here. I'm pretty sure they're still playing- I think I saw a poster for them when we made a weekend trip to Kerrville a few weeks ago.

 

[rkw]

The change from A=440 to C=256 was a very, very pleasant improvement when I tried it at the schiitr - a few years ago now. It did something for music that I'd never heard anything else do before, and I don't think anyone other than Mike is crazy enough to spend a decade of engineering time creating something so utterly new, absurd, and wonderful. Half of its appeal is how almost-frivolous it is, how niche and abstruse and odd the entire concept is. It's hard enough to explain what a DAC is to most people. The gadget is a horizon beyond a horizon.

I'm very interested to hear the effect, but changing the concert pitch goes beyond changing just the sound. Pitch also affects the performance itself and altering it makes it no longer the artist's performance. I'll need to hear it before I know how to feel about it.

Consider a pianist sitting down at a piano tuned to A=440 and playing some music. Then retune the piano to A=432 and have them play the same music. The pianist will hear the lower, more mellow sound of the instrument and likely adjust the tempo, dynamics and phrasing of their playing.

Now consider a recording of the performance at 440, and shift the recording's pitch to 432. What should we make of it? It doesn't represent how the performer would actually play at 432 tuning. It would be an artificially created performance that didn't happen.

I know that some will feel, "you can do whatever sounds the best to you", but often I am genuinely interested in the performer and how they interpret music. It raises questions about the nature of music and performance. We have reached a stage where someone can say, "My favorite Beethoven Eroica is Furtwangler's 1951 recording, retuned to 428 and tempo increased 3%". Would that still be a performance by Furtwangler?

 

[OldRoadToad]

What are you talking about? I've owned Schiit cars for years...!!!

FTW! Well done indeed, sir!

ORT

 

[rkw]

But I still like gas powered cars.

Not a fan of MQA artifacts.

To quote an ex boss Class D sounds like, "running shoes in a dryer".

Jason answered all 3 comments — you have plenty of other choices.

 

[Roy G. Biv]

Absolutely, for the most part people are kind to others. If I see a topic that does not interest me one will soon roll around that might.

If I may transgress into music for the moment, over the weekend I went back through some of the Austin City Limits episodes and started listening to more and more Texas Swing. Asleep at the Wheel has made like 800 appearances so I assume they are like a house band. I ran some of their music through a headphone system and the sound stage on their recorded albums was incredible as were the musicians.



Ok let the hating begin but I like it lol.

Asleep at the Wheel have been fixtures in TX for as long as I've been here. I'm pretty sure they're still playing- I think I saw a poster for them when we made a weekend trip to Kerrville a few weeks ago.

+1 for Asleep At The Wheel and Austin City Limits.
ACL's archives contains phenomenal performances from many of my favorite performers.

If anyone is passing through the Austin airport do yourself a favor and stop by the ACL+Waterloo Record store near gates 14-15.
Yes, Austin has a music store in the airport. And, for the win... Amy's Ice Cream.

 

[Odin412]

I'm very interested to hear the effect, but changing the concert pitch goes beyond changing just the sound. Pitch also affects the performance itself and altering it makes it no longer the artist's performance. I'll need to hear it before I know how to feel about it.

I heard a prototype at the Schiitr a couple of years ago and I didn't really like the effect that it had on music. It sounded weird to my ears - kind of 'off' in a way that's hard to explain. However, that was an early prototype, and it will be fun to hear the product again when it gets released.

 

[roadcykler]

But I still like gas powered cars.

Not a fan of MQA artifacts.

To quote an ex boss Class D sounds like, "running shoes in a dryer".

Apparently something has changed in the way class D is being used since the early days because several companies are using it and it must sound pretty good or people wouldn't be buying it. But, someone once said, old habits are hard to break and I'll add, old opinions are hard to change.

 

[vinylguy87]

+1 for Asleep At The Wheel and Austin City Limits.
ACL's archives contains phenomenal performances from many of my favorite performers.

If anyone is passing through the Austin airport do yourself a favor and stop by the ACL+Waterloo Record store near gates 14-15.
Yes, Austin has a music store in the airport. And, for the win... Amy's Ice Cream.

Just passed through there in October and completely missed the record store in the airport. Guess I’ll need to be on the lookout when I roll through there this year.

 

[bosiemoncrieff]

I'm very interested to hear the effect, but changing the concert pitch goes beyond changing just the sound. Pitch also affects the performance itself and altering it makes it no longer the artist's performance. I'll need to hear it before I know how to feel about it.

Consider a pianist sitting down at a piano tuned to A=440 and playing some music. Then retune the piano to A=432 and have them play the same music. The pianist will hear the lower, more mellow sound of the instrument and likely adjust the tempo, dynamics and phrasing of their playing.

Now consider a recording of the performance at 440, and shift the recording's pitch to 432. What should we make of it? It doesn't represent how the performer would actually play at 432 tuning. It would be an artificially created performance that didn't happen.

I know that some will feel, "you can do whatever sounds the best to you", but often I am genuinely interested in the performer and how they interpret music. It raises questions about the nature of music and performance. We have reached a stage where someone can say, "My favorite Beethoven Eroica is Furtwangler's 1951 recording, retuned to 428 and tempo increased 3%". Would that still be a performance by Furtwangler?

I think your points about pitch impacting tempo, dynamics, and phrasing are extremely deep and open onto the basic questions of musical interpretation. I appreciate your forcing me to sit with them. I wonder whether the answers are to some degree unknowable, particularly if the artist is dead.

I'm reminded of the harpsichordists vs the pianists on Bach. Is it Bach if you're playing it on an instrument he never imagined? Or to choose a directer analogue - European pitch varied wildly before A=440 became the international standard, with artists as eminent as Verdi joining the c=256 movement. Is Furtwängler's 440 Otello really Otello, if Verdi wanted 432?

I think that historically informed performances are extremely rich and rewarding, and the movement has produced a lot of knowledge that's deeply worthwhile and gratifying. But I think it also has its limits, and that we modify recordings all the time, through the tuning of DACs, amps, and transducers—to say nothing of the great EQ revolution currently underway. I think that the artifice of listening to the Mass in B minor with my KSE1500 while jetting across the Atlantic should not be lost either.

I don't necessarily think that Bach is unknowable or unreachable outside the Sunday morning pews of an eighteenth-century Lutheran church. But I think the comparison gives us some context around the acoustic re-production of sound. And as always, Jason's Scotch Mod is an important baseline: we are ourselves so changeable and subjective, day to day, hour to hour, that objective experience will always be a challenging hill.

This kind of pitch alteration is a novel change, and one I'm grateful to Mike for championing. But it's just one of many ways we remove ourselves from composition and from performance.

 

[wout31]

Apparently something has changed in the way class D is being used since the early days because several companies are using it and it must sound pretty good or people wouldn't be buying it. But, someone once said, old habits are hard to break and I'll add, old opinions are hard to change.

My new opinion.
Class D is pretty good when implemented in an active speaker and tuned to the specific reactance of the drivers involved.
On an "open" system where you can buy your own speakers, still below par for all the once I've heard on my speakers.
I've hear several "versions" of the big 2: Hypex and IcePower. Also the latest and the greatest Eigentakt by Bruno Putzeys.

People buying it and companies using it makes it pretty good?
It could be price, it could be looks, it could be availability, it could be brand, it could be form factor etc. etc. all before sound as with much other popular audio gear.

 

[Plautus001]

Jason answered all 3 comments — you have plenty of other choices.

Basically my comments were more of an echo than a challenge, but your interpretation is valid...

 

[EricDH]

My new opinion.
Class D is pretty good when implemented in an active speaker and tuned to the specific reactance of the drivers involved.
On an "open" system where you can buy your own speakers, still below par for all the once I've heard on my speakers.
I've hear several "versions" of the big 2: Hypex and IcePower. Also the latest and the greatest Eigentakt by Bruno Putzeys.

People buying it and companies using it makes it pretty good?
It could be price, it could be looks, it could be availability, it could be brand, it could be form factor etc. etc. all before sound as with much other popular audio gear.

I haven't listened to any Class D amp myself (at least not knowingly and also not recently) Wouter, so I can't say anything meaningful about it. But I am certainly curious.

I know that the Eigentakt has received very enthusiastic reviews on the Soundstage platform, and the (much more expensive) Mola Mola amps (to stay with Bruno Putzeys) have received rave reviews (including from Class D haters). What I get from those reviews is that the latest Class D amps sound super clean, but absolutely not sharp or grainy. Now (and I know it is difficult to describe), can you explain what is (for you) missing or wrong with the latest stand alone Class D amps?

 

[corndog71]

My first experience with Class D amps came from a kit I put together 10 years ago. It sounded ok up to around 12khz and then dropped like a rock. No space, air, or treble detail.

The last time I heard class D it was at Axpona a few years ago and it sounded beautiful, detailed, airy, and holographic. Couldn’t tell you the brand but it was somewhat expensive and in the end I was very impressed.

 

[Paladin79]

Asleep at the Wheel have been fixtures in TX for as long as I've been here. I'm pretty sure they're still playing- I think I saw a poster for them when we made a weekend trip to Kerrville a few weeks ago.

They were on the very firs show and at least 800 since. There is a show covering 50 years of their performances as I recall on PBS. Naturally ACL is the longest running television music show in history.

When you cover that many years, band members certainly change.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Asleep_at_the_Wheel_members